Part 111

Mr. MADISON observed, that he had felt the force of the objections which had been urged against the bill. He was in general principled against excises, but of all excises, that on ardent spirits he considered the least exceptionable. The question now to be determined, he conceived, was this--is an addition to the present amount of the revenue necessary? It had appeared that an addition is necessary; for his own part, he should prefer direct taxation to any excises whatever; but he conceived this would be contrary to the sentiments of a majority of the people of the United States; and he was fully convinced that it was contrary to the opinion of a great majority of the House. If, said he, any mode could be adopted, without having recourse to excises, he would be the last that would give them support; but he conceived there was none, and the plan proposed was divested of the most exceptionable provisions usually connected with an excise system.

Mr. JACKSON observed, that his defeat yesterday should not deter him, while he had a monitor within, from rising in his place to do his duty, in opposition to a system unfriendly to the liberties of the people. He said, he was not the first on this floor who had been outvoted by silent majorities; gentlemen of superior abilities had met with similar treatment. He, however, felt so much respect for himself as to suppose that this silence proceeded from an inability to answer the arguments which he had the honor to offer against what he considered a most ruinous and mischievous system of taxation.

He then stated certain particulars respecting the produce of the revenue, to show that so great a sum as is proposed to be raised by excise is unnecessary.

He doubted not other resources of revenue might be explored which would be more palatable; he instanced a tax on salaries, pensions, and lawyers, and in these particulars, he wished that the example of Great Britain might be followed.

He then dilated on the practice of smuggling, which he contended would be promoted by this bill; also the difficulties and opposition which were justly to be expected, by which the dignity of the Government would be insulted. Can this Government, said he, protect its officers from the resentment of any one State in the Union? He reprobated the idea of placing the Government in such a situation.

Mr. LAWRENCE observed, that he doubted not every gentleman's mind was open to conviction, and he hoped and expected that every question would be treated dispassionately. He did not rise yesterday to answer the gentleman, because he was not impressed with the force of his arguments in the manner the gentleman supposed the House was. He then adverted to the act of the last session, by which the debts of the particular States were assumed. Having taken this debt upon ourselves, the consequence is obvious, nor can we ever get over the dishonor of not making the necessary provision for paying it. He then adverted to the statements which had been submitted to the House by the officer to whom the Union had intrusted the direction of its finances. From these it fully appeared that a much greater deficiency in the revenue existed than some gentlemen appeared willing to allow. If this deficiency exists, and if the United States are bound to make provision for the debts they have assumed to pay, the duties contemplated by the bill appear the most obvious for the Government to recur to. He adverted to the idea of direct taxation, and inquired, on what principle will gentlemen consent to this mode of raising the necessary supplies? Will they make the representation of the several States the rule by which it shall be apportioned? He doubted whether direct taxes on this principle would be agreeable, even to the gentlemen who have mentioned them. He then remarked on the objections to an excise, on account of the mode of collection. He said a rigorous collection would bear hard only on the dishonest, while it would protect the fair trader from bearing an undue proportion of the public burdens.

He observed on the uneasiness which is said to prevail in some of the States; and to obviate the force of these reflections he instanced the harmony and peace that prevailed in those States which bear a much greater proportion of the public burdens than those which complain, as was abundantly evident from the documents in possession of the House.

Mr. STEELE stated his objections at large to an excise; he adverted to the particular situation of affairs in some of the Southern States, especially North Carolina. The Assembly of that State had rejected the proposal of taking an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, with scorn; they had also refused to admit Continental prisoners into their jails; and another circumstance more hostile to the General Government than either of the foregoing had taken place, which he forbore to mention. He said such was the present state of the public mind, in various parts of the Union, that he should dread taking any measures which might serve to increase the fermentation which the people are in. An excise he considered of this nature; it would in its operations produce the worst consequences. A more exceptionable mode of taxation he conceived could not be devised. A direct or poll tax, he supposed, would not be so odious; and though, for his own part, he should prefer an excise to either of the former taxes, yet such was the aversion of the people to it, that he should prefer almost any other alternative. He thought other objects might be found from which the necessary revenue could be raised. He instanced duties on inland navigation, law proceedings, legal conveyances, &c.

He then adverted to the operation of an excise, especially in the State of North Carolina, and said that the consumption of ardent spirits in that State was so great that the duty would amount perhaps to ten times as much as in the State of Connecticut. On the whole, he hoped, if the section is not struck out, that the excise will be reduced.

Mr. SHERMAN observed, that the subject now before the committee was thoroughly discussed the last session; and as nothing new or of weight or importance had been offered the present session against it, he thought it would be a useless waste of the time of the House to go into a particular reply to the objections offered against the bill. This he thought a sufficient answer to the charge of carrying questions by silent majorities.

He then entered into a short consideration of the subject generally, and defended the system from the charges which had been adduced respecting its unequal operation.

Mr. LIVERMORE was in favor of the bill. He said he considered it as an equal and just mode of taxation; and, as such, will be agreeable to the people--they will consider it as drinking down the national debt. So far, said he, as my observations have extended, I have not found a single individual who has objected to it. He then obviated the objections to the bill, which he conceived arose principally from the word excise. He thought the term very improperly applied on the present occasion, for the duty cannot be said to be an excise. He then gave a description of what had been considered in times past as an excise, which, to be sure, is a very unequal tax, inasmuch as it fell on the poor only, who were obliged to purchase in small quantities; while the rich, by storing their cellars, escaped the duty. But this bill provides that the duty shall fall equally on the rich and poor. It is to be paid, or secured, by the importer of foreign spirits, and on the still-head on domestic spirits. This will equalize the burden, and leave no room for complaint. He then adverted to direct taxation; and by a variety of particulars, showed that it was utterly impossible to lay a direct tax that would not prove unjust, unequal, and grievously oppressive.

Mr. BLOODWORTH spoke against the bill. He dilated largely on the present uneasiness which prevailed in the State of North Carolina. His experience, he said, was directly contrary to that of the gentleman from New Hampshire; the people to the southward universally condemned an excise.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, he was unhappy to hear that discontents prevailed in any part of the United States. He could assure gentlemen that he did not contemplate the execution of the laws by military force. He was sure that in no part of the Legislature were entertained designs inimical to the public liberty. In framing the present bill, great attention had been paid to prevent its being attended with those qualities which, in other countries, rendered taxation by excise justly obnoxious to popular resentment. He relied on the good sense and well-informed understandings of the people in every part of America, for the execution of such systems for the support of public credit, and for the diminution of the national debt, as should be devised by the wisdom of their Representatives. For the same purposes, he said, he confided in the patriotism of the gentlemen who came from those districts of country where uneasiness was said to exist. He believed there was indeed considerable deficiency to be provided for, for the support of Government and of the public credit. This belief was founded in his confidence in the information received from the Secretary of the Treasury. But if there was no deficiency, his disposition to support the bill would be the same; for he had never believed that a public debt was a public benefit. Is it not, then, the duty of those to whom the people have delegated the important trust of guarding their prosperity, in a season of profound peace, to liberate them from the burden and pressure of debt? Therefore the only question to be determined is, whether the proposed duties are a proper source from whence we might derive the necessary aids to provide for the payment of the interest, or the diminution of the principal of our debt? He believed that of all the subjects of revenue which were within the power of Congress, none was so proper as the duty on ardent spirits, contemplated by the bill. In this sentiment, he believed he concurred with that of the great body of the people. The several species of taxation may be divided into the four following: by impost; a tax on internal negotiations; direct taxes; and that now under consideration, excise. The impost duties had been extended as far as was, in the opinion of any gentleman, dictated by sound policy. The tax on internal negotiations, which could not be carried on to any considerable extent without the intervention of stamps, was subject to the objection brought against the present bill, and that in a degree incomparably beyond it, of being opposed by public opinion. Direct taxes are still more objectionable on that account, at least in every part of the country to which his knowledge extended. They are of all taxes the most unequal, and in this country would be found the most oppressive. They are unequal, because with whatever exactness they might be apportioned upon capital or income, the only two principles on which an apportionment can be made, they may, and will be, very unequal as to the burden imposed; because a man's ability to pay taxes is not in proportion either to his capital, his property, or his income, but to that part of his income which is over and above his necessary expenses, according to the usual manner of living for persons of his degree in the community. They will be oppressive in this country, because in many of the States the plentiful circulation of money, and the facility of obtaining it, does not extend to the interior parts, nor could it be obtained by many of our citizens without a great sacrifice of property. It may be added, that from the extent of our settlements compared with the number of our citizens, the expense of collection would be immense.

In regard to excises, Mr. S. said, that in all insensible modes of taxation, it should be observed, that a much greater sum would be obtained from an individual than by any mode of direct imposition: this, without entering into a discussion of the reasons upon which it was founded, is demonstrated by fact. He instanced the porters of London, from whom, in the single article of beer, was drawn ten times as much as could be procured by the most rigorous mode of direct taxation. With regard to the proposed duties, though the well-meant consideration of morality which had been urged by some gentlemen weighed but little with him, because he doubted whether it was well founded, yet, if the consumption should be lessened, he did not believe it would be attended with any sensible inconvenience. The consumption, at present, amounts to an enormous quantity; from these considerations, as the measure is dictated by sound policy, he hoped and believed it would be supported by a good degree of unanimity.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) adverted to the funding system, to show that the faith of the United States was pledged to raise a sufficient revenue to discharge the debt, which, by that system, they have engaged to pay. The Secretary's statements point out a deficiency; those statements, he had no doubt, were as accurate as the nature of things would admit. Gentlemen who find fault with the proposed plan do not offer a substitute. He then entered into a defence of the bill, and showed in what respects it differed from the English plan of an excise.

He said, the present bill was not so exceptionable on account of its violating private property as the collection law.

He instanced, in a particular clause of that law, the power of entering houses by warrant from a justice of the peace--trial by jury is secured by this bill, and other provisions friendly to personal rights are added.

Direct taxes are as much objected to by North Carolina as the excise; and though direct taxes are mentioned, no plan is offered.

He then enlarged on the importance of punctuality in paying the interest of the public debt, and of having a surplus revenue in the Treasury. He doubted not the gentlemen in favor of the bill were as patriotic as those who are averse to it. Difference of opinion is to be expected; but he had a better opinion of the good sense of the community than to suppose they would be led away by a sound; they will see and judge for themselves; and when they see that the law is free from all those obnoxious qualities which have been suggested, they will submit to it without complaint, especially when they realize that the tax is equal, and the only effective resource within the present command of the Government. The General Government is authorized to lay excises--North Carolina knew this when she adopted the constitution. The opposition, he suspected, was against the object to which the money is to be appropriated.

Mr. GILES said, the sentiments of the people of the Southern States have been so differently represented from what he conceived to be the state of facts, that, in justice to them he conceived himself bound to take some notice of the observations which had fallen from gentlemen. He then stated certain principles on which taxation should be formed. Taxes should be necessary, and raised on a plan consistent with the principles of liberty. He adverted to the necessity, which, he observed, was abundantly apparent from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but he did not confine his opinion to what had fallen from him. He instanced other reasons which would occasion a necessity for replenishing the public Treasury. The expediency of the present mode he argued from the impost's being carried to the utmost; from the approbation of this mode by a majority of the people; and though uneasiness might prevail in some of the Southern States, he considered them as originating altogether from want of due information. Possessed of that information, he could pledge himself to the committee that they would cheerfully acquiesce in whatever the Legislature should decide to be for the general interest.

With respect to the bill's being agreeable to the principles of liberty and republicanism, this would more properly come into view when that part of the bill which designates the mode of collection comes under consideration. At present he would only say, that he had observed with pleasure, that there appeared to be a universal disposition in the members of the House to manifest the most scrupulous attention, in all their deliberations, to the liberties of the people.

On the whole, he had no doubt that, on mature reflection, the people would acquiesce in the present plan, when the honor, security, and peace of the United States appeared to be essentially connected with a further provision for the public exigencies.

Mr. STONE particularly alluded to the statement offered by Mr. JACKSON, by which it appears that only the sum of 146,000 dollars was wanting--whereas the Secretary's report calls for the enormous sum of 800,000 dollars. He called on gentlemen to show the errors of the statement offered by the gentleman. It had not been done.

He then adverted to the number of people that would probably be wanted in order to make the duty productive. He believed they would be so numerous as to be sufficient to constitute an army.

Mr. FITZSIMONS read an estimate of the actual and probable produce of the present impost and tonnage for the current year, by which it appears there will be a deficiency of upwards of 300,000 dollars; but taking into consideration certain contingencies, which, should they take place, will diminish the amount of the present duties, it appeared that the deficiency would be much larger than the sum mentioned; but even in case of a surplus being produced by this bill, there are objects to which it can be applied highly beneficial to the United States. He instanced sinking the deferred stock, and the three per cents. The reduction of the public debt is an object which ought never to be lost sight of.

MONDAY, January 10.

Vacancy in the Presidency.