Part 110

Mr. SCOTT objected to the motion. He stated several difficulties; the principal was, that foreigners would be deterred from adventuring, owing to the uncertainty in the price; for when they arrive in the country to settle, they must purchase, and they will then lie at the mercy of speculators.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--The people have great dependence on the Western territory as a fund to extinguish their debt; it therefore becomes the duty of the Government to obtain the best price they can for it. The question is, whether we shall fix a price, or adopt the plan proposed by the gentleman from Massachusetts. He was in favor of the latter, and said he doubted not it would be easy to make a discrimination in the relative qualities of the lands. This difference in price may render it worth while for the Commissioners to have the land of a particular district explored. He replied to the objection from the want of integrity in the surveyors. Admitting the full force of the objection, it was probable that the United States would gain by it; at any rate, it would not lose; and it was probable that, to avoid suspicion, if the surveyors should be interested in the tract surveyed, they would give more than thirty cents. With respect to foreigners, after they arrive in this country, they then will be on the same footing with our own citizens. He adverted to the mode which had been adopted by New York--they had sold lands in every way, at a certain price, at auction, and are now selling them at the discretion of Commissioners, at a rate not below a certain sum.

Mr. STONE objected to the mode of leaving the price unfixed, as it would involve a complex system, subjecting the purchasers to great inconvenience, perplexity, and uncertainty. He reprobated the system adopted by New York, and asked the gentleman (Mr. LAWRENCE) whether New York had not been subjected to great loss and vexation in consequence of the plan they had pursued? He wished the system of New York should be fully understood, in order that the United States may avoid it. He concluded by saying, that he was in favor of fixing a price, and supposed that the Western Territory, sold at thirty cents per acre, would sink the whole of the national debt.

Mr. LAWRENCE replied to Mr. STONE. He said, that when the State of New York sold their lands at a fixed price, there had been complaints on account of the best tracts being taken up. When they had sold them at auction, the value of the lands had been generally realized in proportion to the quality. With respect to the last mode adopted, the result was not yet known.

Mr. WHITE said, if gentlemen had proposed the amendment to the clause which respects large purchases, he should not have objected to it. He, however, objected to it in the present case, and, in order to show that a fixed price was most eligible for small quantities, he instanced the practice of Lord Fairfax, who had been a great proprietor in Virginia; and also the practice of the first proprietors of Pennsylvania. These sold their lands, good and bad, at one price; their experience for such a length of time, near a century, he thought sufficient to show that mode to be the most eligible. He would not object to fixing that condition to special contract.

Mr. SEDGWICK obviated the objection in the first instance, by saying that the officers will be able to determine, with very considerable precision, what will be for the interest of the United States. He said experience had proved that there were no insuperable difficulties in the case.

Mr. MOORE observed, that the actual value of the best lands in that territory was about thirty cents per acre. When all of that description is sold, the next will bring the same price; from whence he inferred, that there could be no difficulty or loss attending fixing the price. He stated some difficulties which would result from adopting the mode proposed.

WEDNESDAY, January 5.

Duties on Spirits.

The House, agreeably to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair, and took into consideration the bill repealing, after a certain time, the act laying duties on distilled spirits, &c., and imposing others in their stead.

Mr. JACKSON moved to strike out the essential part of the first clause. He stated his objections at large against the principles of the bill, and reprobated the funding system, and an excise in particular, as an auxiliary to it.

The tenor of his observations was to show that this mode of taxation was odious, unequal, unpopular, and oppressive, more particularly in the Southern States; in which he observed its unequal operation would be most sensibly felt, as the citizens of those States have no alternative to adopt by which they can diminish the weight of the tax; no breweries or orchards to furnish a substitute for spirituous liquors; hence they become a necessary article. He contended that they were not only necessary, but salutary in the Southern regions. This, he said, had been acknowledged by an Eastern author, Mr. Morse, an authority which he presumed would not be disputed by the Northern gentlemen, especially when it was considered he was a clergyman. Mr. M. declares that grog is a necessary article of drink in the Southern States.

Mr. J. took notice of the petition of the College of Physicians, which had lately been read in the House on the subject of distilled spirits. He disapproved highly of their interfering in the business. He thought they might with equal propriety interpose their offices to prevent the use of many other articles which were deemed pernicious or of a poisonous quality. He instanced mushrooms; they might petition Congress to pass a law interdicting the use of catsup, because some ignorant persons had been poisoned by eating mushrooms.

Mr. J. then gave a short sketch of the history of excises in England. He said they always had been considered by the people of that country as an odious tax, from the time of Oliver Cromwell to the present day; even Blackstone, a high prerogative lawyer, has reprobated them. He said, he hoped this country would take warning by the experience of the people of Great Britain, and not sacrifice their liberties by wantonly contracting debts which would render it necessary to burden the people by such taxes as would swallow up their privileges. We are, said he, too much in the habit of imitating that country; and I plainly perceive that the time will come when a shirt shall not be washed without an excise. He then expatiated on the unequal operation of excises, and instanced the experience of this State. A few counties, said he, approximate to the capital, have borne the weight of the whole, while the distant parts of the State did not feel the burden; and, by an indication of several particulars, he showed its unequal operation in the Southern States. It will deprive the mass of the people of almost the only luxury they enjoy, that of distilled spirits. He did not see the necessity of passing this law the present session. The amount of the produce of the duties laid last session is not yet known, nor is it yet ascertained whether the citizens will subscribe to the assumption. Let us not lay a tax for a purpose which may never exist; for my part, I hope they never will subscribe. He then adverted to the excess of duties already laid, and the probability of a great increase of that excess; and urged the propriety of waiting at least another quarter to see what that excess may amount to. These observations he enforced by recurring to the recent transactions of the States of Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina; and he expected to hear very shortly that the Assembly of Georgia had expressed similar opinions with the latter States on the business of the assumption. He concluded by expressing a general disapprobation of the various parts of the bill.

Mr. PARKER said, he had seconded the motion of the gentleman from Georgia, not because he was more averse to this particular clause than to the subsequent parts of the bill. He exceedingly disliked the several provisions contained in it. He then adverted to the general process of the revenue business the last session; and observing on the conduct of the mercantile interest, to which so much credit had been given, said, he thought they were not entitled to the liberal encomiums which had been bestowed on them for their promptitude in paying the duties, as the certainty and increase of the revenue had served to enhance the value of the public securities, of which it is well known they hold a very considerable portion.

He then touched on the subsequent parts of the bill, which he reprobated as hostile to the liberties of the people, as contrary to the general sentiment; not only as partial and unequal in the mode of assessment, but particularly on account of the mode of collecting the tax. It will, said he, convulse the Government; it will let loose a swarm of harpies, who, under the denomination of revenue officers, will range through the country, prying into every man's house and affairs, and like a Macedonian phalanx bear down all before them. And though the Government has proceeded with a degree of prosperity and success beyond the most sanguine expectations, yet he very much doubted the policy of trying its strength by an experiment of this nature.

Recurring to the actual and probable produce of the duties already laid, he attempted to show that the additional sum of upwards of eight hundred thousand dollars, contemplated to be raised by this bill, is not necessary. He controverted the policy of the measure, and contended that it would, in all probability, rather diminish than increase the revenue of the United States. For the mercantile part of the community, who have been applauded for acting so honorably in making their entries, and paying the impost, will find it for their interest to alter their conduct; they will combine to defeat the excise, which will in its operations bear so unequally on them.

He objected very particularly to the bill on account of its tendency to promote smuggling. Mr. P. said, no man was more heartily disposed than he was to give his approbation to every just measure for supporting the public credit, and doing every thing in his power to support the constitutional operations of the Government; but this mode of raising a revenue he considered as particularly odious to the people; and at the present moment he was not satisfied that such an increase to the public burdens is necessary.

Mr. STONE said, he had no objection to the design of the bill so far as additional revenue was necessary; but the mode of raising it by excise he exceedingly disliked. He had no doubt that other means might be devised; but at present he thought the committee was not sufficiently informed respecting the actual and probable amount of the revenue from the duties already imposed, to determine the necessity of an addition to the revenue. He therefore moved that the committee should rise without any further discussion of the bill at this time, and that a select committee should be appointed to make the necessary previous inquiries upon the subject, and report to the House.

Mr. FITZSIMONS observed that there was already on the table a statement from the proper officers of the product of the revenue, from September, 1789, to September, 1790.

This statement was read.

The motion for the committee's rising was put and lost.

The question on Mr. JACKSON's motion for striking out the clause was put, and negatived by a great majority.

THURSDAY, January 6.

Duties on Spirits.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill repealing after the last day of ---- next, the act laying duties on distilled spirits, &c., and imposing others in their stead. Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

The twelfth section, which specifies the rates of duties, being read,

Mr. PARKER moved that it should be struck out, in order to admit a substitute which should provide for a different mode of raising the requisite additional revenue; the proposition he had in view, he said, was a duty on molasses. This, he observed, would answer every purpose, without being liable to the objections which had been offered against the plan of the bill.