Part 121

Q. Now I ask you another thing--Did you ever disclose this conversation with Mr. De Berenger till after Lord Cochrane refused you a loan?

Lord Ellenborough. If any application you made for a loan was in writing, you are not bound to answer that question.

Mr. Serjeant Best. My question was as to the time of the disclosure to the Stock Exchange, I will certainly read his letters; this does not touch me, but my learned friends of Counsel for De Berenger had not seen these letters. My question is, whether you ever disclosed the matter you have stated to day against De Berenger till after you were refused a loan by Lord Cochrane?

Lord Ellenborough. But if the proposition for loan was in writing, the letter must explain itself.

Mr. Scarlett. If we are not allowed to examine this witness as to his motives and his conduct as to these letters, I do not see how these letters could ever be made evidence.

Lord Ellenborough. You cannot examine him as to his motives, without producing the letters, that would be extracting the most unfair testimony in the world; I know nothing about the man, I never saw his face before to-day; but he, as a witness, has a right to the common protection of the law of the land, and not to have garbled questions put to him.

Mr. Scarlett. We do mean to read the letters.

Lord Ellenborough. And then you may call him back to ask him any questions upon them; but I would not have him answer without the letters being read.

Mr. Brougham. My learned friend merely referred to the letters as a date, not to the substance of the letters.

Lord Ellenborough. But he has said that he never had any communication with Lord Cochrane, but by letter, therefore the request for a loan, if any one was made, must have been by writing, and if he is to be questioned about that request in writing, he ought to have the terms of that request in writing read before the jury, so as to give a pointed answer to it.

Mr. Brougham. With great submission, my learned friend, did not ask as to the contents of the correspondence, but in point of date and time merely; he put this question, Was your information given to the Stock Exchange previously or subsequently to that correspondence, whatever the contents of that correspondence were?

Lord Ellenborough. I never heard that question put till this moment. Previous to some supposed correspondence, without stating the nature of that correspondence, was the information given by you to the Stock Exchange?

A. No, it was given by Lord Cochrane in his publication of the correspondence in the Morning Chronicle.

Lord Ellenborough. We cannot get on without the letters.

Mr. Serjeant Best. I have no objection to the letters being read now.

Lord Ellenborough. That would disturb the order of the proceedings.

Cross examined by Mr. Richardson.

Q. The conversation with Mr. De Berenger was about the 14th of February?

A. Yes it was.

Q. Have you not reason to know that about that time he had expectations of getting some employment in America?

A. He mentioned it to me himself.

Q. To serve under Sir Alexander Cochrane who had a command?

A. To serve under Lord Cochrane as I understood.

Q. He expressed his anxious desire and wish to be so employed?

A. Particularly so.

Q. He expressed a hope that he might make himself useful to the cause, by drilling the sharp shooters, and other things of that sort?

A. That was what he represented.

Q. Did you not know that he had had experience as a volunteer officer in a particular department?