CHAPTER XIV.. A Second Examination.

A SECOND EXAMINATION.

Report of questions propounded by District Attorney Winifred C. Zabel, of Milwaukee county, and Wheeler P. Bloodgood, to, and answers given by, John Flammang Schrank, at the county jail, of the county of Milwaukee, Wis., in the presence of Sheriff Arnold, Donald Ferguson, Francis E. Davidson and others, commencing at 12:50 P.M. on the 16th day of October, 1912. Reported by Alfred O. Wilmot, court reporter, District court, Milwaukee county.

Mr. Zabel:

While you were living in New York what newspapers did you read?

A. I read the New York Herald and I read the New York World, and the New York Staats-Zeitung, a German paper.

Q. That is a German publication?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that a morning paper?

A. Yes, sir; also evening edition.

Q. Did you read any of the Hearst publications?

A. No, sir.

Q. The New York American?

A. No, sir.

Q. New York Journal?

A. No, sir.

Q. What you read in the New York World and what is the other news----

A. Herald.

Q. And New York Herald did anything you read in those papers impress you in any way?

A. Well, it did in a way impress me, that means, I thought whatever I read in the paper was pretty much right, what the people were talking about this building of the new party and deserting the old party. You can read that in the newspapers and that is what I read and it must be right.

Mr. Bloodgood:

Q. Mr. Schrank, you remember I examined you at some length on Monday evening and you spoke of the New York Herald and New York World and the headlines that appeared in those papers, and that you have been reading them constantly, is that correct?

A. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. Zabel:

Q. Did you read those papers for the political items that were contained in them?

A. Well, in fact, not exactly for that. I read the papers the same as anybody else, and naturally things like those I took interest in every, and the items interested me in those articles.

Q. What headlines are still fresh in your recollection which you read? concerning political----

A. Oh, I could not just recall anything. Headlines doesn't amount to much. It is now and then perhaps, but it doesn't amount to much. It is just the item itself.

Q. Was there anything you read in those papers that gave you any distinct impression to kill Roosevelt?

A. No, sir; not at all. I cannot blame the papers whatsoever. I have done what I done on my own convictions.

Q. Well, were you not impressed by what you read in the New York papers as to the menace which Mr. Roosevelt would be to our nation?

A. No, sir; not by the papers, hardly. I thought my own opinion about that.

Q. Do you remember reading anything in those papers in which Mr. Roosevelt was described either as a tyrant or as a traitor?

A. Oh, no.

Q. Or his ingratitude or words to that effect?

A. No; there might have been a few criticisms that says I am It Or Me and I and that is about all, but that doesn't impress much on anybody.

Q. When you say that---- You started to say before that you were much opposed to Mr. Roosevelt deserting the old party and building up a new party---- What old party did you have in mind?

A. The Republican party.

Q. Were you interested in the Republican party?

A. No, sir; I was not interested.

Q. Ever vote the Republican ticket?

A. Yes, sir; I have several times.

Q. On National elections?

A. National elections.

Q. Ever vote for Mr. Roosevelt?

A. No.

Q. Municipal elections were you----

A. A democrat.

Q. Democrat for what particular reason?

A. Well, as long as we were in the liquor business there in New York it was almost natural that we should vote the Tammany rule because every liquor dealer needs protection.

Q. On account of what?

A. Account Sunday law, because we was selling Sundays beer that we could not sell unless you belonged to that organization. You will have the police after you all the time. I suppose you know that as well----

Q. Did you ever contribute?

A. Well, we had to contribute at times--yes, sir. There would be a different way to contribute.

Q. Did you ever give money to the organization?

A. No, not to the organization.

Q. Or to the police?

A. There is a different way of doing that. If you didn't do it willingly of course there would be a way. They will be around one of those nice Sundays and arrest you and naturally there will be two there and they will impress a charge against you in a manner that will get you out in case you paid them. I have been doing that several times, gave each one five dollar bill or ten dollar bill and they won't press the charge.

Q. This money was to be used for what purpose?

A. That I could not tell.

Q. The men that came around on that mission were they police officers or politicians?

A. Well, regular officers, specials, what takes these Sunday----

Sheriff Arnold:

Mr. Zabel, did anybody here send for a man named Moss?

Mr. Bloodgood:

Yes. Send him in.

Q. Did you ever contribute anything to the Republican campaign fund?

A. No, sir; I had no reason.

Q. Was ever any contribution solicited of you by Tammany Hall or by the Police?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now isn't it a fact that a good deal of your feeling against Roosevelt was created by what you read in the papers?

A. It was not created, no, sir.

Q. Well, was it to a large measure influential?

A. I could not just deny that it had some influence but not to be decisive.

Q. Not decisive.

A. No, sir.

Q. Didn't it make you feel angry and unfriendly?

A. Not any worse than what I was.

Q. Didn't make you feel any worse or more unfriendly?

A. No, sir.

Q. Toward Roosevelt?

Mr. Bloodgood:

Q. How long have you been reading the New York Herald?

A. Oh, I believe since I am able to read.

Q. And the World?

A. Also.

Q. Now you said the other evening that papers you principally read were those two--was that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now did you read them during August of this year. You were in New York then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And state what impressed you in particular--what you saw in the New York Herald in August--at about that time of the formation of the new progressive party in Chicago?

A. Well, in fact I cannot remember much. I could not be very much impressed by the New York Herald because the Herald is a very conservative paper. The Herald is not what they call the Yellow press and the only excuse the Herald had is simply to say, Well, the Third Termer, that is all.

Q. Now what in the New York World impressed you during that time?

A. From that time?

Q. During that time.

A. Well, as I have said before, there was no special impression nohow. It was only the same as anybody else could read, which was to be found in the editorials or the man was building up a new party and was deserting and he cries that he stole the nomination away from him, such as that; as anybody else would read. That didn't make any serious impression on me.

Q. Now, when did you write out these statements that was in your pocket?

A. On the 14th of September.

Q. Wrote it all out on that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Every bit of it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. From the beginning to the end? Answer my question.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Yes, or no?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the very statements the police found in your pocket was written by you and all of it on the 14th day of September, 1912?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now in your pocket was found a statement in regard to the various places that Col. Roosevelt was to speak. Where did you get that from?

A. Oh, every day in the papers. Just as I followed the towns. I generally bought a paper there the same day or the next morning and that would just about give me the information where I could meet him next.

Q. That was in your own handwriting, that statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The other night when you were examined with reference to that you said you hadn't written it out?

A. Which. Written out?

Q. That statement they found in your pocket.

A. That I hadn't wrote it out? Well, who should have written it out?

Q. You said you hadn't written it out in your own handwriting or on the typewriter?

A. On the typewriter.

Q. Is that in your own hand?

A. Well, in the first place I cannot handle a typewriter and in the second place who else should furnish that or who else should write it?

Q. That was----

A. In fact I suppose if you compare the two of them there must be some likeness. I don't profess that I write the same all the time or every time, but I think that was written on one day.

Mr. Zabel:

You----

A. I think it is one and the same writing.

Q. How did you happen to compose those articles?

A. Because it was the 14th of September, the day McKinley died and the day I had that vision I completed my will-power that I was going to do that what I did.

Q. You made up your mind then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There wasn't anything you read in any papers that caused you to do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was it you wrote those articles?

A. In New York.

Q. In your room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Ever read them to anyone?

A. No, sir.

Q. Ever mention the fact of having written them to anyone?

A. No, sir.

Q. Ever show them to anybody?

A. No, sir.

Q. Anybody help you compose those articles?

A. No, sir.

Q. Ever talk to anybody before that that you intended to do that?

A. No, sir; no, sir.

Q. Now, how was it you come here from Chicago?

A. Chicago. To here?

Q. Yes. Who was it came with you here from Chicago?

A. Nobody came here with me.

Q. Wasn't you traveling with somebody?

A. Indeed not.

Q. Didn't somebody keep you posted as to where he was going?

A. No, not at all. My God I am 36 years old and I am not crazy, the same as the papers has stated. I ought to be able to follow----

Q. Did you attempt to get tickets to get in the Auditorium?

A. No, sir; I didn't. I waited outside in front of the Auditorium. Yes, is that the Auditorium in Chicago---- No, that is the Coliseum.

Q. Is that---- I mean in Milwaukee?

A. No, I didn't intend to go there at all.

Q. Did you go inside of the Hotel Gilpatrick?

A. No, sir.

Q. Ever talk to any of these gentlemen (referring to those present)?

A. No, sir; to none of them, unless they have questioned me here Monday, I don't know. I have never seen them before.

Mr. Bloodgood:

Q. Were you at the depot at about quarter of six on Monday night?

A. On what depot?

Q. In Milwaukee, when Mr. Roosevelt came to Milwaukee.

A. No, sir; I was not.

Q. Where were you at quarter to six?

A. Quarter to six. I was standing in front of the Gilpatrick.

Q. Did you go down to Chicago and Northwestern depot?

A. Chicago-Lake Shore depot--around four o'clock, but not later.

Q. And how long did you stay there?

A. I didn't go to the depot--as far as that goes. I went to the last street and I walked around this way up to the hill and came back to the town. I didn't go into the depot.

Q. What time was that?

A. Four o'clock, I believe it was.

Q. On Monday afternoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now you left New York on what date?

A. On the 21st. 21st of September.

Q. Upon what railroad?

A. I took the ship.

Q. What transportation company?

A. I really don't know which it was.

Q. Well, what dock did you leave from?

A. I could not tell you, Mister, what dock. I know the steamship's name was Commache (Commanse, so pronounced).

Q. Where bound for?

A. For Charleston. No, it was bound in fact for Florida, but it stopped at Charleston.

Q. You got off at Charleston?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day did you reach Charleston?

A. I reached that on Monday--Monday, I believe at five o'clock.

Q. In the afternoon?

A. In the afternoon; yes, sir.

Q. Did you expect Col. Roosevelt at Charleston?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. What was your purpose in going to Charleston?

A. Well, my original intention was to go to New Orleans, and reading the papers I found that he was changing his way of traveling and so this that before the steamship comes to New Orleans why I wouldn't be following him there any more--he would be gone, so I thought I would take Charleston and then get to Atlanta, perhaps I can meet him at Atlanta.

Q. Where did you stay there?

A. At a boarding house by the name of Mosley House.

Q. Do you know the street?

A. I believe it is Merlin street, near Main.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. I stayed there Monday and I stayed there Tuesday, I think I did. I guess I left the next day.

Q. Well, where did you go to from Charleston?

A. Charleston I went to Augusta.

Q. Where did you stay at Augusta?

A. At Augusta I stayed in the Planters Hotel. I have got it in that slip, if I make a mistake it ain't my fault, but I got it all down in every city where I stopped, so if I make a mistake----

Q. You put that down on a slip from time to time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As you went along?

A. Yes, sir. I might make a mistake now, and you think I am making you a false statement.

Q. Did you meet anyone at Charleston whom you knew?

A. No, no; I was a perfect stranger there.

Q. Did you meet anyone at Savannah, Georgia?

A. Augusta.

Q. Augusta?

A. No, I was a stranger there. At every place. I didn't know anybody to go to.

Q. Did you go to the hotel where Col. Roosevelt was staying at those places?

A. No, I didn't. I could not tell where he was going to stop. I could not tell that every time. Now the same as his coming from New Orleans I took a trip down to Birmingham I thought sure he was going to stop at Birmingham. Instead of that he changed his way and he went way to Macon, Georgia. That is the way he deceived me half a dozen times after it was advertised that I could meet him there and there.

Q. What day did you get to Chicago?

A. Chicago. I arrived if I ain't mistaken, now I might not tell the truth but I guess it, I think it was Friday.

Q. Friday morning?

A. Friday dinner time, if I ain't mistaken.

Q. Now what did you go over to the La Salle Hotel where Col. Roosevelt----

A. I was over to the La Salle, but not in the hotel.

Q. You didn't go inside of the hotel?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you stand?

A. On the street, the same as here, on the street.

Q. In front of the entrance?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Waiting to hear whether he was coming out?

A. No, I didn't wait for him to come out because he got there in the morning--I think he did, in the morning, yes, at ten o'clock he got there. I seen him go in and I never seen him go out.

Q. You saw him go out or go in at ten o'clock Saturday morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where were you standing?

A. On the street with the rest of the crowd.

Q. Did you try to get your revolver there?

A. No, sir.

Q. What prevented you from drawing?

A. Well, I thought it is his reception that might have a bad feeling on the city of Chicago, giving him a reception like that; I thought I might have plenty of chance to get at him later on if it wouldn't be just at the reception.

Q. Let me understand you what prevented you from drawing.

A. I says because it was the reception---- There was so many people receiving him and I suppose the city of Chicago would like to give him a decent respectable reception. It would look awful bad if at the reception he would have got shot down, I says to myself that wouldn't go, I might get a better chance.

Q. You knew there was a death penalty in Illinois?

A. No, sir; I never knew anything like that.

Q. How near were you to him when he passed you that morning at the La Salle?

A. How near? It was on the other side of the street.

Q. Is that the nearest you got to him?

A. Yes.

Mr. Zabel:

Did you carry your revolver at that time in your pocket?

A. No.

Q. You had one that you----

A. In here (indicating hip pocket).

Q. Where did you go--to the Coliseum---- Why did you go to the Coliseum if you didn't intend to shoot him in Chicago?

A. Indeed I did intend to. I am just telling you I didn't intend to do it that morning when he was being received there. I thought I would get a better chance.

Q. So it was a matter of chance or was it a matter of your wanting to kill him in front of the hotel?

A. When he was being received?

Q. Do you mean by that that you didn't want to kill him in front of the La Salle but that you were perfectly willing to kill him when he was away?

A. I was willing to kill him, that is all, but I was I just wasn't willing to kill him at the reception. I told you that three times I didn't want the city of Chicago to feel sore that a stranger comes along at the beginning----

Q. Just a matter of the time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now that he had---- That was Saturday morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now when you went---- Did you go to the Coliseum?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you stand---- How near were you to him?

A. Well, as near as I could get in the crowd. As near as the crowd let me get there, mostly in the middle of the street.

Q. Well, how near were you to the automobile?

A. I could not see the automobile coming. They came in a different way. I was in the main entrance and they came on the side way.

Q. You were standing at the main entrance?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you have the gun--here?

A. Here. In here.

Q. In your vest pocket?

A. Yes, sir. Here is the hole (indicating exhibiting a hole in the lower left hand vest pocket).

Q. Right through here?

A. And down in the trousers.

Q. And you were waiting at the main entrance?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you get to that main entrance?

A. I could not tell you now, sir.

Q. Well, approximately.

A. Well, perhaps half an hour before he came.

Q. You were right by the portal or door?

A. No, sir; I was in the middle of the street.

Q. You intended to shoot him right from the street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now then, when you found he came into the other entrance what did you do then?

A. I went up. I could not do nothing. I had to wait until he comes out.

Q. Did you wait until he came out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you wait?

A. At the main entrance again.

Q. And you were there then when the speech was over?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you get near him then?

A. No, I didn't. He didn't come out the main entrance.

Q. You were all ready to shoot him then at the main entrance?

A. Well, I was there, I expected him to come there.

Q. Now, after you found he didn't come out through the main entrance, where did you go?

A. Went home.

Q. Went to the hotel. How long did you stay there at the main entrance?

A. Until he came out.

Q. Well, how did you know which way he would come out?

A. I could not know--that is why I was--I was at the main entrance, I expected him to come out there.

Q. Where were you standing then, in the street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. By the automobile?

A. No. I was standing at the front entrance. I didn't know his automobile. Automobile don't wait all the time, anyhow, I didn't see it or I forgot.

Q. Now then, where did you learn that he was coming to Milwaukee? From the papers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You came up to Milwaukee at what hour?

A. Twelve o'clock, noon time.

Q. Now, on Monday night, did you go and inquire of the---- Did you talk to Mr. Moss, who is in charge of one of those automobiles?

A. Never spoke to that gentleman. Never spoke to anybody.

Q. Did you go up and ask anyone whether Mr. Roosevelt was going to get in this car?

A. No, sir; nothing like that.

Q. Now there was a big car right back of this car in which the Colonel was when you shot him--there were two automobiles, smaller cars in which the Colonel got and a larger car right back of him.

A. Might be.

Q. Well, did you speak to the chauffeur in the car back of the Colonel's and ask him whether he was going to sit in that car?

A. I didn't do anything of the kind. Didn't ask anybody. I didn't speak to anybody. It was always my principle not to speak to anybody unless a man bids me the time then I answer him, but why should I speak in that way?

Q. Now, what other place did you see the Colonel besides in Chicago, in front of the La Salle other than on Monday night?

A. I saw him in Chattanooga.

Q. Chattanooga, Tenn. Was that the time the automobile was going so fast?

A. Yes, sir; that was the time.

Q. How near were you to him then?

A. I was near enough when he came out but I could not stay within reach.

Q. You were standing in front of the entrance?

A. In front of the entrance.

Q. With your revolver ready to shoot him then?

A. Yes, sir; I was always ready to shoot him.

Q. Now, did you see him as he went in or came out that day at Chattanooga?

A. When he came out the entrance.

Q. After he finished his speech?

A. No, I didn't go there to see him there.

Q. But you say you saw him at----

A. I saw him going out the Chattanooga depot, out of the railroad station, going to his hotel.

Q. At the railroad station?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You went there just as you went to the railroad station in Milwaukee?

A. No, I didn't go to Milwaukee.

Q. Well, you said you went down to the lake shore station at four o'clock?

A. Yes, at four o'clock, but I didn't go down there to see him coming in.

Q. Now at Chattanooga did you go down to the railroad station?

A. No, I didn't have to go down. I just stopped at the other side in the hotel.

Q. How near were you at Chattanooga?

A. I was near enough to shoot him.

Q. Why didn't you shoot him at Chattanooga?

A. Well, I didn't shoot him at Chattanooga because it was a new thing to me. I didn't just exactly have courage enough to do it and he started off so fast in his automobile and I thought maybe there is a better chance.

Q. How near were you to his automobile in Chattanooga?

A. Why, from there to there, about ten feet.

Q. Were you as near as you were the other night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you standing in the street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you start to draw your revolver then?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your courage left you then?

A. For a moment it did.

Q. Were there any policemen standing around you at Chattanooga?

A. Yes, there was some, keeping the crowd back.

Q. And were you on the sidewalk or in the street?

A. In the street, off of the entrance.

Q. Did you get right next to his automobile?

A. No, sir; I could not get next----

Q. You were about ten feet away from him?

A. Yes, about half a dozen other people in front of me.

Q. And your courage had left you at that time?

A. For a moment it did.

Q. When his automobile started off did you start to go after him?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see him again in Chattanooga?

A. No, sir.

Q. After that time. Now, when did you see him next after Chattanooga?

A. That was the last time I saw him until in Chicago.

Q. Until in Chicago. Did you see him any time prior to the time you saw him at Chattanooga?

A. No, sir.

Q. So the only three times you were within reach of him was in front of the La Salle Hotel in Chicago, Saturday morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And at the Chattanooga depot?

A. At the depot.

Q. And then in Milwaukee Monday night? Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And since the 21st of September up to the 14th of October the only times that you were within reach of or even saw the Col. Roosevelt were the three times you have mentioned?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was he in any of the cities you were in at the time you were there excepting Chicago, Chattanooga and Milwaukee?

A. Not at the time I was there. He was there either before or after me.

Q. So those were the only three----

A. That I had a possible chance to shoot him, yes.

Q. Now state again, when he was at the La Salle Hotel, could you have shot him then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were near enough to have shot him at the La Salle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What prevented you from shooting him, was it that your courage gave way?

A. No, sir; not my courage didn't give way. As I said I didn't want to do it because it is his coming-in reception--man is getting there--I didn't want to do it for that sake. I thought I'd get a better chance.

Q. Was it because of the fact you desired a better chance or you didn't want to do it on that particular occasion?

A. On that particular occasion. I didn't want to do it. Yes, sir.

Q. And at Chattanooga it was a matter of personal courage with you--your nerve failed you?

A. Just for a moment it failed me, yes, sir.

Q. Have you been accustomed to using firearms?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever shot a revolver?

A. I have shot a revolver several times during the 4th of July, that is about all, but I never handled it much. I don't know how to shoot. I didn't know whether I shot the man or not.

Q. How was it you got a 44 frame for a 38-caliber gun?

A. 44 frame?

Q. For a 38-caliber gun?

A. Well, my dear man, you know more about a gun than I do. I don't know anything about that. I bought that in that place that is a gun shop and they got all new ware and he told me it was a 38-caliber and I paid $14. Whatever the housing of it was I don't know.

Q. You speak of housing--you are familiar with revolvers?

A. You are telling me a 44 casing.

Q. That is what you call a housing?

A. Well, that is what I meant--that is what I understand--casing--unless you mean the box where it was laying in.

Q. No, I am talking about the housing--frame?

A. I never knew they could use a 38 on a larger casing, could they? How is it possible that they can have a 38 cartridge in a 44, in a larger casing than that?

Q. Well, that is what you did--44 frame?

A. You found a different revolver than mine.

Q. Who did you discuss the question of the formation the character of revolver. Who did you talk with over that?

A. What?

Q. As to what sort of a revolver to buy?

A. To nobody. I didn't have to talk to nobody.

Q. How did you happen to get the 38?

A. I asked for it.

Q. Why didn't you ask for a 32?

A. I don't know. I tell you the other one I had home was a 38.

Q. Oh, you had another one home?

A. Oh, not now, that is years ago. If I had that home I didn't have to buy it. I got the thing in storage. It is in the storage house if you want to get it. Stored with the stuff.

Q. Where is your stuff stored?

A. In New York.

Q. Whereabouts?

A. 80th street, I guess, and Third avenue.

Q. Well, what warehouse?

A. Well, you got to wait now until my grip comes here from Charleston. I got the whole thing.

Q. Have you sent for your grip?

A. I don't know. You gentlemen--told me that you are tending to that.

Q. Can't you give us the name of the warehouse?

A. I could not give it to you now.

Q. What have you stored there?

A. Five-room furniture from the old folks of mine.

Q. And your revolver?

A. Why, everything, of course, that belongs to the house.

Q. How long had you had that revolver?

A. I don't know. I could not tell you.

Q. Are you sure it is stored there?

A. Unless they stole it. I know I stored it there.

Q. Did you have a receipt for the different articles you stored there?

A. Sure. I can show you that as soon as--but of course the revolver is not marked on that because the revolver is in one of the drawers, I suppose.

Q. You don't know when you got that revolver?

A. I could not tell you.

Q. Have you ever shot it?

A. I shot it, I believe twice or three times during the 4th of July celebration out in the yard.

Q. Had you ever shot this revolver?

A. No, sir.

Q. You shot it the other night. Where did you buy the bullets that went in that gun?

A. The same place with the gun.

Q. How many cartridges did you have?

A. Did I have? Well, I bought a box of them and paid 55 cents for it.

Q. Where are the rest of the cartridges?

A. They are in the grip.

Q. Oh, they are in your grip in Charleston?

A. As soon as it comes over you can see it all.

Q. You didn't bring extra cartridges with you?

A. Yes, sir; I had. I took some out. I had five in the gun and I had six with me in my pocket.

Q. Did they find those?

A. They have got it in the police station.

Q. They have got those cartridges in the police station. Now, who hit your arm--did somebody hit your arm?

A. I don't think so.

Q. When you were coming--who was the first man to get hold of you--that great big man?

A. I could not say who it was. I simply shot and I don't know whether I hit the man or not or whom I hit, but I know the first thing I went down and a whole lot on top.

Q. When you aimed the revolver at Roosevelt was there anybody standing on each side of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you stick the gun between the heads of two people?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you say any word?

A. No, sir.

Q. When you fired?

A. No, sir; I said nothing.

Q. Talk---- Did you try to pull the trigger again?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were knocked down before you could pull it again?

A. Yes, sir; I was.

Q. You would have pulled it again?

A. Perhaps I would. I don't know.

Q. Well, now in your grip have you any literature--any papers?

A. I have a book in there, yes, a memorandum book.

Q. Did you have any newspapers which you carried about--did you cut out clippings out of the newspapers?

A. Oh no, no. I didn't do it.

Q. Did you have any record that Col. Roosevelt that you cut out of his acts when he was commissioner of police?

A. Oh no, no. You think I'd carry that here, if I wanted to carry that with me ever since 1893 when he was commissioner--you are crazy or I must have a whole book.

Q. Well, did you keep any?

A. No, sir; nothing at all. I didn't take that much interest.

Q. How do you mean, you didn't take that much interest?

A. I didn't feel that way about him then when he was police commissioner.

Q. When did you first commence to feel that way?

A. I felt it in Chicago.

Q. That was the first time?

A. The first time, yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. In fact, the first time I felt against him was when I had that dream against him the time McKinley died and then I thought I really could not believe in dreams, I could not go to work and shoot a man down because all dreams don't come true.

Q. When was that?

A. That was the same night or the evening that Mr. McKinley died.

Q. How long did you feel that way about it?

A. I felt about it. Well, have at least two weeks.

Q. Did you see Col. Roosevelt at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go to Washington?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you follow him about at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Had you ever seen him personally prior to the time----

A. No, sir.

Q. Had you ever seen him when he was in New York?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the first time you ever saw Col. Roosevelt?

A. At Chicago. In Chattanooga.

Q. At Chattanooga. The first time you ever saw him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Personally the first time you were ever near him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You mean to say all the time you were living in New York and the times he has been going back and forth from New York you have never seen him at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever go out to Oyster Bay?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever go over to the Outlook office?

A. I don't know where that is.

Q. Well, that is a publication--Mr. Abbott's weekly publication in New York.

A. I don't know where it is. I could not even find it. I know quite some streets in town, in the neighborhood. I have never been interested in that. I didn't know that Roosevelt had anything to do with the Outlook at all.

Q. Well, you knew where his office was in New York?

A. Whose office?

Q. Col. Roosevelt.

A. At the time he was police commissioner?

Q. No, since he was president--he has been going back and forth in New York----

A. Since he has been on his third term here.

Q. I say he has been back and forth in New York?

A. How could I know his office?

Q. While he was in New York after the meeting of the Progressive party in Chicago you knew that, didn't you?

A. I don't think so. I thought he was to Oyster Bay. I don't think that I ever read of it that he was in New York city.

Q. He went to his office to the Outlook office?

A. I have never been looking for him then, sir.

Q. You weren't looking for him then?

A. No, sir; I wouldn't know where to find his office.

Q. When you read of the formation of the party in Chicago what papers did you read that in?

A. The same papers.

Q. New York Herald and the World?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What you read about it then, did that rouse you up to anger at all?

A. Well, not exactly anger but I was getting more and more convinced that this man's ambitions is nothing else but a blow to McKinley's death and he wants to get a third term and he shouldn't have it, and that is all.

Q. When did you make up your mind to that--in August?

A. I made up my mind pretty much in August and then I was corroborated during the vision I had on the 14th day of September.

Q. When you say you made your mind up pretty much in August after the meeting of the party, what do you mean by that, that you thought of killing him then?

A. Yes, sir, I thought of killing him then.

Q. In August. Had you made any plans then to kill him?

A. No, I had made none until the 14th.

Q. And you thought then of doing this same thing?

A. I thought about it, yes, sir; although I was making up my mind as to how or whether I would do it and I thought about it.

Q. What time in August was that that you thought about it--just after you read in the papers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. After the formation of the party?

A. After the formation of the party--wasn't that the 7th of August?

Q. What particular thing in the accounts of the papers impressed you at that time that gave you or caused you to make up your mind?

A. Nothing particular but simply the fact that he built the new party; that he was going to take a third term presidentship.

Q. Did you have any grip with you when you went to Chicago?

A. No, sir.

Q. You had no baggage when you went to that hotel?

A. I never had any baggage since I left it in Charleston.

Q. Bought no underwear?

A. Yes, I bought underwear, certainly, and I threw the old underwear away.

Mr. Zabel:

I think that is all.