Part 27

Before we went into the Committee, Percival desired to say, that as he understood his idea had not been approved of by the House in general, and that every one seemed to wish that this Bill might pass without any division or difference of opinion, he should not now insist upon it, though he was not convinced that the motion was improper.

Mr. Eden said, that the principle of the Bill met his hearty concurrence; though he wished to observe that the clause about the judicature seemed to him so worded, as to declare that England never had the right of appellant judicature, which was not the case.

Lord Newhaven said, he saw no reason for not inserting the clause, and he should, therefore, move an instruction to the Committee, to receive a clause to prevent any treason, or mis-prision of treason, committed in Ireland, from being inquired of or tried in Great Britain.

Lord Lucan seconded him.

Lord Nugent objected to this. He said that, originally, when attempts had been made in the House of Commons in favour of Ireland, no man had been a more eager or strenuous supporter of them than himself. But now, ever since he had seen the disposition of this country favourable to Ireland, and that it was the sincere wish of all Englishmen to adopt the most liberal principles on that subject, he had thought that it became more proper for persons connected with Ireland to remain silent, and to leave the measures in favour of that country to be carried through by Englishmen. In the present instance, he wished that the clause in question had not been proposed, because it was attended with more difficulty than the noble Lord seemed to be aware of. The Act of Henry VIII., which had been referred to, had been adopted and confirmed as an Irish Act by the Parliament of that country. This being the case, the repeal of the English Act could have no effect whatever, because the Irish statute would still remain un-repealed, and could only be removed by the Parliament of Ireland; whilst, on the other hand, we should be to take away a law which had been so much approved by Ireland as to be by them adopted.

Mr. Herbert read the Irish statute alluded to, and said that the disposition towards Ireland which appeared in every part of the House, could not but inspire that country with every sentiment of affection to Great Britain.

I then said, that if the motion made by the noble Lord was persisted in, I should most undoubtedly not oppose it, because it was impossible for me to give opposition to any measure which had even the appearance of adding strength to the exclusive rights of Ireland; that I was of opinion myself that the jurisdiction in question was not, by any means whatever, conveyed by the Act referred to; that the statute of Henry VIII. was not intended to affect any part of the King's dominions was clear to a demonstration, from the subsequent statute of the same King in explanation of it--the preamble of which, referring to the former Act, does expressly speak of treasons committed out of this realm, and other the King's dominions; and that the circumstance of the adoption of the former Act by the Irish Parliament was a clear proof that it was not considered as an Act which could bind Ireland; and I could not help wishing that the noble Lord would withdraw his motion, for the reason stated by the noble Lord (Lord Nugent), that we could not repeal an Irish Act; and that without so doing, the repeal of the English statute (even if it did give any jurisdiction) would be nugatory. Besides this, there was another reason. The framers of this Bill had certainly never supposed that it could go to remove at once every difficulty which might arise, and to settle at once every point which might require to be settled when, as in the present case, a great stream was turned into a new channel. Our idea went to the unequivocal and permanent establishment of those points which were in the contemplation of Government last year, to those things to which Parliament then intended to pledge, and to which I had ever been of opinion they had inviolably pledged the faith of the nation. That by so doing, we conceived we should establish a foundation of confidence, upon which all less important points might be adjusted with mutual temper, harmony and affection; that Ireland could certainly entertain no doubt that the same principles which had guided us in the great and extensive considerations would continue to actuate our conduct in those of less concern and more confined regulation; (that in the present case, if the English Act was a grievance to Ireland, so also would the Irish be to England.) At the same time, however, I begged that it might be clearly understood that this clause was not objected to on the ground of its being a new claim on the part of Ireland. Ireland had last year, in the Addresses of her Parliament, claimed to be a distinct and independent kingdom. If, therefore, this Act affected her independence--and in that light it was objected to--so far it certainly was not in any respect a new claim. To supreme legislation and supreme judicature, all criminal jurisdiction was certainly annexed and inseparable.

Lord Newhaven then withdrew his motion.

Percival said, that the exercise of this jurisdiction had been antecedent to the Act of Henry VIII.

In the Committee, Lord Beauchamp objected to the word established, which he wished to alter to the word recognized; but that, unless it was agreed to, he would not press it.

I said that, as every word of the Bill had undergone the most serious discussion, and the most attentive consideration, on both sides of the water, and that as the present form had been approved of, I wished the Bill might receive no alteration, in order that it might pass, without any possible difference of opinion, in any part of the House.

He then proposed to put for ever instead of for the future; to which I agreed.

To the last clause, to prevent the receiving writs of error, &c., I moved an addition, which was drawn by the Attorney-General in consequence of the enclosed papers from Mr. Travers. I enclose also a letter to him, which I wish you would let Bernard or Cooke copy, and send to him, with a copy of the clause in question.

Upon the whole, the business has gone off better than I expected; though I take it for granted that we shall hear again, both of the criminal judicature and of the recognition. Pitt offered to state the objections at large to the latter; but I thought it better not.

Lord Bellamont has written a letter in the newspapers about the criminal judicature, which I suppose you have seen. I saw him in the House, and told him the part I meant to take. He said he wished it had been inserted in the Bill, but hoped at least that I would guard against the idea of its being called a new claim. To this you will see that part of my speech was directed; and for that reason, as well as on account of the miserable statement of it in the papers of to-day, I wish that you would revise and publish it in the Irish newspapers.

After this business was over, Eden wished that Ireland might be inserted in the American Intercourse Bill. I was gone; but the Solicitor-General said that he thought it pretty extraordinary that, on the very day that the House had declared that they had no right to legislate for Ireland, that honourable gentlemen should wish to make trade laws for her.

I hope to be with you now in the course of a week; but wait for your answer to my letters, having heard nothing from you since yours of the 16th of February. Adieu.

Believe me ever, My dear brother, Most affectionately yours, W. W. G.

The letter to Mr. Townshend respecting the Irish peerages contained the expression of a desire on the part of Lord Temple to take His Majesty's pleasure on the subject of an increase of the Irish peerage. Before Lord Temple had entered on the Government of Ireland, His Majesty had communicated to him his disinclination to increase the Irish peerage at that time; but as a dissolution of Parliament was now proposed, which would involve in troublesome and expensive contests many gentlemen upon whom it was supposed His Majesty might be inclined to confer that mark of the royal favour, and who had been recommended for it by former Lord-Lieutenants, Lord Temple thought the opportunity favourable for such a creation. Mr. Townshend's answer, conveying the substance of a note he had received from the King in reply, is curiously characteristic of the imperative interest taken by His Majesty in all matters of a personal nature. After expressing His Majesty's confidence that "Lord Temple will be as sparing as possible in his list of peers," Mr. Townshend adds, "Mr. Pennington must be included in the promotions. If advances are proposed, the Dowager Lady Longford must be a Countess; and if any peer of a junior date to Lord Dartrey is advanced, he must be promoted in the same degree."

Under the circumstances in which Lord Temple was placed by the resignation of Lord Shelburne, and the delays that followed in the settlement of a new Cabinet, Lord Temple resolved to resign his Government of Ireland. Unwillingness to embarrass His Majesty unnecessarily had hitherto restrained him from carrying this resolution formally into effect; but it appears from the following letters that he transmitted his final resolution to his brother, who communicated it to Pitt. The sound judgment of Mr. Grenville is shown with remarkable clearness in his observations on Lord Temple's answer to the Duke of Portland, which was not marked with the decision demanded by the occasion; and his prudence and discretion are equally apparent in the advice he tenders to Lord Temple, upon the necessity of resigning his office into the hands of his successor, instead of throwing it up with an "appearance of fretfulness and intemperance." The contrast between the temperaments of these distinguished men is frequently felt throughout this Correspondence, in the traits of calm, practical wisdom which will be found on the one side, affectionately checking and controlling the tendency to hasty constructions and impatient action that existed on the other.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, March 6th, 1783.

My dearest Brother,

I have just received your letter of the 1st instant, and need not, I am sure, attempt, what I could not do--the expressing the happiness and exultation of my mind, and the joy which I receive from a determination which, however repugnant it may be to my interests, is perfectly and entirely consonant to every feeling, to every opinion, and to every wish of my heart, public and private. With respect, however, to one part of your letter, I must own to you--and I take the first moment to do it--that after a very serious and deliberate consideration, I should feel great repugnance to the idea of Lincoln's Inn, and that for reasons which I hope soon to detail to you in person; though I will certainly not leave London till something is settled.

Nothing has happened since my letter of this day's date, which you will probably receive with or before this. The general idea is that the King is determined to hold out against the Duke of Portland and Fox. How this can be done, I protest I do not see, except by Pitt's accepting the offer which was made to him. Lord Gower and the Chancellor were the only two people with the King yesterday.

Your letter has confirmed Jemmy in the idea, which was originally his, and not mine, of the disgrace of being transferred with the Standishes, &c., &c. Adieu.

My dearest brother, Ever most truly and affectionately yours, W. W. G.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.