Part 17

Jan. 10.

I have delayed finishing this letter till this morning, in the vain hope of being able to get something specific to propose to you. After dinner, on the 8th, Townshend produced Lord Camden's preamble. I send you a copy of it, and need not, I am sure, observe to you how unsatisfactory it is to Ireland, and how humiliating to Great Britain; and how perfect an ignorance it shows, after all that has passed, of that business which is referred to him for a decision. Neither Lord Shelburne, Townshend, nor Pitt, who were present, attempted to defend it against the observations I made upon it.

Some conversation passed upon it, after which Townshend went away. The conversation then turned more particularly upon what was to be done, in which the only very settled idea that I could find was, that your preamble was not to be adopted.

Pitt then threw out the idea of declaring the intention of the Act of Repeal, and making the new enacting clause a consequence of the principles then adopted. We talked this over a little. I pressed for something being settled to send over to you. The answer Lord Shelburne gave me was, that the Cabinet lawyers were all dispersed, and without them nothing could be finally settled. Pitt then went away. I continued the conversation, and asked Lord Shelburne if it would not be right, as he had approved of Pitt's idea, that I should see Pitt, and endeavour to put something upon paper upon it. In this he agreed.

When I went home, I sent the enclosed note to Pitt, and in consequence of it saw him yesterday morning. I was near two hours with him, drawing up something of a form. At last, the Bill No. 1. was settled: more, I believe, because we were both tired out with weighing words, than for any great merit that I see in it. However, at the time I thought it might do; but in the course of the day, thinking it over, I disliked it, and sent the form No. 2. to Pitt, who desired to see me again. When I went to him, he proposed, after some conversation, the Bill No. 3., which I took to consider.

But, in the meantime, I am au dernier point at a loss what to do in it; because, after an absence of six weeks, I know no more of the present ideas of people in Ireland, and of the squabbles and distinctions of words on which the whole turns, than the Ministers here do; and less, God knows, I cannot know! If you wait till something is formally sent you, I shall certainly be reduced to the necessity either of putting the business off, or of doing something in a hurry, without knowing whether it be right or wrong. For you may depend upon it, that neither will any of the unlearned Ministers pledge themselves to a specific form, nor will the learned come from their rural retreats one hour before the 17th.

In this situation I feel myself obliged to lay upon my oars, and to entreat you to return the messenger as soon as possible, to say whether any and which of the forms will do, or what kind of thing I am to press for; for I am thrown quite wide. Your old preamble they will not adopt except compelled to it. What their objection is I cannot find; but most likely it is the dear delight of alteration that operates upon them. If you think that nothing short of saying "They have now the right" will do, for God's sake say so explicitly in a despatch. I have never quite lost my patience in this cursed business till this moment, and I confess now I cannot quite preserve it. After having carried the great point against their will and inclination, we shall now be ruined by their delay and their damned country-houses.

If you don't like any of these forms I send you, and yet will not propose any other, for God's sake send one over to me that I may propose it, or bring their's as near as possible to it. Pray return your messenger as soon as you can, for this disappointment and anxiety works me more than I can express to you. Adieu.

Believe me, my dearest brother, Most affectionately yours, W. W. G.

You will observe that these cursed delays have driven us so near the mark, that it will be impossible for me to hear from you again before the 21st. You will, therefore, send me your full determination on every point, and in every case that you can foresee. Nobody can feel more than I do the painful necessity of being obliged to act upon my own judgment upon the general contents of your letters, instead of acting up to any specific idea. What increases my difficulty is the whole matter having arisen since I left Ireland, and my consequent ignorance of the language of individuals on every other part of the subject, except the preamble you sent over, to which they were pledged. Would to God that they would adhere to that!

Ever yours, W. W. G.

Pray return Lord Camden's preamble.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 19th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

I received last night your letters of the 15th, and this morning went to Townshend with them. We proceeded together to the Premier's, who expressed great dissatisfaction at the contents of your despatch. We had a good deal of conversation about it, which ended in Townshend's proposing that he should on Tuesday move for leave to bring in the Bill, and that in the meantime your opinion might be taken on the preamble proposed by Lord Ashburton. I thought it worth while to fall in with this idea, provided, as I expressed myself, that the motion was made on Tuesday, and in such words as should be pledges to Ireland of satisfaction.

My reason for this, was my wish that you should have an opportunity of seeing the enclosed preamble, which Townshend is to send you formally to-night, and judging upon it. You see it is directly adverse to the principle of recognition; still, as it is so very strong as to the future, and the doubts being capable of being referred to Lord Mansfield's decision, I cannot help hoping that it may do. On the other hand, it will certainly pass the two Houses better; because Lord Mansfield, the Chancellor, Lord Loughborough and Lord Ashburton, will, in the case of a recognition, protest against the repeal being at all conclusive or satisfactory. This would be strong for us to meet, and therefore I think you may fairly take the new ground; express your adherence to your old opinion, that the Bill does not contradict it, but that it was an object to carry it with as little opposition and to make it as generally satisfactory as possible.

I am to apologize to you in the strongest manner for not adhering to your positive instructions. But in such a case, and at this distance, one must act much on one's own judgment; and I cannot help thinking that if you had been on the spot, you would have done the same, considering how far they are pledged by Townshend's motion, and that there will be little appearance of delay.

Jemmy agrees in opinion with me. I write this in great hurry, and need not exhort you to return an answer as early as possible. I have not at all pledged you to approve of Lord Ashburton's preamble, which, au contraire, I have combatted here, but have said: "I am incapable of judging," &c., &c.

Ever yours, W. W. G.

You must not be angry with Townshend for sending Lord Ashburton's Bill for your consideration, as I have taken that upon myself to him.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 22nd, 1783.

My dear Brother,

I sit down to give you a mere outline of what passed to-day. Townshend said that, in pursuance of the notice given before the holidays, he rose to submit to the House a proposition on the subject of Ireland; that he did not intend to go into the subject, but only to move for leave to bring in a Bill. He then read the motion; disclaimed every idea of impeaching the settlement of last year; stated that Lord Mansfield could not do otherwise; but that this had had the effect of increasing the doubts that had arisen in Ireland; that it was the intention of Government to leave no possibility of cavil upon the exclusive rights of judicature and legislation.

I seconded the motion, and said, That as the motion which was made went only to the bringing in a Bill, it was not my intention to trouble the House with much upon the subject; but that in the situation in which I stood I could not, consistently with those feelings which pressed so strongly upon me, and with my sense of the duty I owed to both kingdoms, refrain from expressing the sincere and heartfelt pleasure I received from seeing the business brought forward by Government in the earliest moment, and the eager and earnest wish of my heart that the Bill to be brought in in consequence of this motion might obtain the end proposed by it, and set those questions for ever at rest which it was hoped that the transaction of the last year had fully and finally quieted; that here I must disavow in the strongest manner all intention of casting any reflection, or of acquiescing in any reflection, which might be cast on the honour and integrity of the transaction of last year as conducted by the Government of this country, and by the gentlemen who treated with Government on the part of Ireland; that those gentlemen had acted as true and sincere friends to their country, and to the harmony of the empire; that the right honourable gentleman who then moved the business in that House had declared at that time, and had repeated the declaration a few days ago, that those gentlemen treated with him upon the expressed and avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction on the part of Great Britain over Ireland; that as such I considered it; that the right honourable gentleman had also stated the reasons which operated, and I thought operated wisely, against the adoption of other ideas which had then occurred; that the dignity and honour of Ireland was too nearly connected with, and too inseparable from, the dignity and honour of Great Britain, to make them desire that Great Britain should humble herself by an acknowledgment that the right which she had so long exercised had been usurped; that, on the other hand, it would have been absurd to have asserted the right at the very moment that it was to be abandoned for ever: such an assertion could answer no good end, and could only serve to wound the feelings of a nation whom it was intended by that transaction to bind by the strongest ties of affection, as they were already bound by the strongest ties of interest, with Great Britain. These were the reasons why it had been brought forward in the manner in which it had; and every friend to both countries, or to either, must certainly wish that it had proved satisfactory. But it could not be concealed that doubts had arisen upon the operation and effect of the transaction, and that if such doubts had prevailed--if from reasons, possibly ill-founded, they had been adopted by many well-intentioned men, and if those doubts had been strengthened by the late decision of the Court of King's Bench, however necessary that decision might be, from the circumstance of the cause having been set down for hearing before anything had passed in the House on the subject of Ireland, and if that decision induced a necessity--as it certainly did--of passing a Bill for preventing any writ of error from being received, it was surely an act of policy and magnanimity in Great Britain, it was consistent with the honour and dignity of the House to set that question for ever at rest by an authentic and solemn avowal of that which was avowed by all the parties to the transaction, and to place upon the records of Parliament a lasting monument of the good faith and justice of Great Britain.

It was with this view that I gave my most hearty consent and support to this motion; with this view that I hoped it would meet, not only with the general support, but, if I might be allowed to hope so much, with the unanimous concurrence of the House; because I wished very much to show to Ireland that it was the unanimous determination of the House to abide by those principles which had been unanimously adopted in the last session, which had at the opening of the present session received His Majesty's approbation, and had met again with the unanimous approbation of both Houses in their Addresses to the Throne; and because I wished also to demonstrate that nothing which had happened since last year--that no change which had taken place in the Government, either here or in Ireland; no alteration of the circumstances of this country, either with regard to Ireland or to the rest of the world; and particularly nothing of that which I hoped I, an uninformed man, might be allowed to call the near hope and prospect of peace--had made any difference whatever in those sentiments of justice, of liberality and of affection to Ireland which had actuated and, I trusted, ever would actuate, the conduct of the Parliament of Great Britain.

After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.