Part 49

MAJOR GENERAL M. W. IRELAND: The question of patients having money while in the hospital is one of the most demoralizing things that can happen. It has been recognized in the Army for many years.

In the Philippines we had a sympathetic commanding officer and we received permission to with-hold a certain portion of the funds. Then we received word from the Secretary of War that it was contrary to law; that the money was earned by the soldier, and had to be paid to him.

I think you are going to find the same is true of compensation. If you are going to hold the compensation of the man while he is in the hospital, you will have to get an Act of Congress. I think, therefore, that you should consider the amount of compensation the man should get while in the hospital; consider the proposition of maybe reducing his compensation while in the hospital, being cared for by the Government.

SENIOR SURGEON J. E. DEDMAN (R): I am glad this subject came up. A year and a half ago, a committee of T. B. experts came to our hospital and we discussed that question. I made the statement that many of the men in our hospitals were getting too much money. It was immediately taken up by the American Legion, and they said all kinds of unkind things about me. I said that men who never had any money in their lives single boys, etc., were getting $80.00 a month and that this was too much money.

I cited the instance of where a lady came into my office, weeping. She said she had been dependent upon her son; that he had gotten that day a check for $1200; had bought an automobile for $1500; and had gone $300 in debt.

The greatest set of vultures we have to contend with are the automobile salesmen. For instance, they come and sell to our boys for $700 cars which would sell for $400. If the boy has $500, they charge him $750 in order to get notes and keep him in debt.

I am in favor of getting an Act of Congress to put the man’s money at interest, so that when he is rehabilitated he will have something to take care of himself. As it is now the boys are spending their money for hootch, automobiles, etc., and instead of rehabilitating them we are ruining them.

MR. M. SANGER, St. Elizabeths’ Hospital: In regard to the question of General Ireland, the pension regulations include a provision that one part of the pension shall be devoted to reimbursing the hospital for part of the care. I think that would serve in a way to admit of those in hospital getting less while there than when outside.

SENIOR SURGEON G. B. YOUNG, U.S.P.H.S. While on the subject I offer the suggestion that something might be done along this line in connection with the disciplinary regulations, which provide that when a man is discharged for disciplinary reasons his compensation will be withheld for a certain period. We all know that we sometimes will have to discharge people for disciplinary reasons, and it may happen that the offense is of such a character and the man of such a character as to make you feel that the sentence you have to impose upon him as compared to that which you have to impose upon a flagrant offender is lacking in elasticity. It seems to me that it would be well in this connection to consider whether the regulations could provide for the with-holding of compensation by the Veterans’ Bureau for a greater period as an incentive to better conduct, so that the man might be returned to the hospital with the incentive that if he behaves satisfactorily that this money which had been withheld would be restored. As it is a man has to be discharged and he goes out penniless, because he hasn’t anything coming to him for several months. If he could look forward to a suspended sentence, I think that would save some of the better element among these possible unintentional offenders and get them back into a line of good behavior.

COLONEL JAMES A. MATTISON, N.H.D.V.S. This question which was brought up by Congressman Madden, General Ireland and others is a very pertinent one. This method of handling the funds of men of former wars has been in effect in the National Home service for many years. The matter just spoken of in regard to handling this money in a disciplinary way has also been a feature. In regard to the men who have been offenders, who have been continually guilty of getting drunk, the commanding officer of each hospital had the authority to with-hold, as a disciplinary measure, any part or the whole of a man’s pension until such time as he saw fit to turn the money over to the man or a part of it. Of course the matter of with-holding pension money in the case of men of former wars is of much less importance. Formerly, these men were getting $10, $20 and $25 a month, and when Congress passed a pension law providing $30 a month, they saved money. That does not compare with the pensions our soldiers of the recent war are receiving, $80, $100 and $150 a month, and, as has been stated by several men already, it has been and is going to continue to be one of the greatest factors in preventing these men from being restored to an active state in life again.

In the matter of the corrupt conditions which have been described as existing around these hospitals, it is something that cannot be prevented. Every effort has been made. The civil authorities have been appealed to and in most cases they have given undivided co-operation. Personally, I feel that it is an exceedingly important matter.

SURGEON J. B. ANDERSON (R): If I have interpreted the regulations correctly, we are not permitted to have a canteen around the hospital. If I am in error, I should like to know it.

LIEUT. COL. W. H. MONCRIEF, U.S.A.: Contrary to the impression given here yesterday afternoon, revelry does not maintain at Fitzsimmons Hospital. I think we have a well-ordered institution. The matter of compensation does give us some concern.

We have four classes of patients,—Army, Navy, beneficiaries of Soldiers’ Homes and of the Veterans’ Bureau. On the day I left, we had a total of 980 patients, 719 of which were Veterans’ Bureau beneficiaries. These are officers, ex-nurses and ex-enlisted men. I will say that the behavior of these people during my tour of duty at the hospital compares favorably with that of any other institution. We have our troubles; if we didn’t have them, I don’t suppose the institution would need a commanding officer.

But the question of compensation is one that is not easily adjusted unless it is adjusted at the source. It is impossible to give you an idea—unless you have charge of one of these institutions—of how much trouble the commanding officer is going to have if the responsibility of withholding this compensation is put on him.

We are near a large city—not too near and not too far—but we are surrounded by people who want to offer at all times every inducement to the enlisted men to spend this amount of compensation in the most advantageous manner. This class ranges from the peddler of tin toys to the most reliable banking firms in the city of Denver. Those bank representatives wait on us. Since I have been there, I have had to pursue the policy of excluding from the reservation all solicitation whatsoever, my argument being that it was my duty, to protect the T. B. patients; that if one solicitor were allowed, others must be allowed; and that I had no time nor inclination to pass upon the merits of the various propositions offered. I have not had a great deal of trouble; and since I have been able to get the representative people to understand this situation—and I take particular pains to inform all my personnel that reputable firms and others are aware of this prohibition—it is assumed that anyone soliciting on the reservation is not reputable.

I think a great deal can be done in regard to taking care of this matter by the social service work in the hospitals. The good people of Denver have been very kind in every way.

DR. BUTLER: In view of the fact that economy seems to be the order of the day, and to have economy the bird’s-eye view has been pointed out to organizations this morning, I suggest that as a fitting slogan for this body, the words. “Cultivate a bird’s-eye view” be adopted.

GENERAL SAWYER: I don’t know just what authority you gentlemen have in regard to the matter of solicitors, but at White Oaks Farm if interruptions such as these attempted to exist, somebody would get hurt. I would not tolerate the existence of such affairs. There is no reason why you should, and if there is any reason why you shouldn’t, this Board can help you to bring about some regulation or some rule whereby it will be possible for you to protect yourselves and your people against such imposition as this. Be assured that this Board is going to provide it; but I really think that if you will exercise your authority as commanding officers and not allow these people to intrude upon you, you will be able to cure a lot of your difficulties at home.

SURGEON J. M. WHEATE (R), U.S.P.H.S.: A year ago we were swarmed with agents, and I sent out a hospital regulation prohibiting that. It is easy to issue regulations, but hard to put them into effect, so I have made it a rule to make my regulations as few as possible. This, however, I found to be a necessary regulation, and I prohibited agents of all kinds from access to the hospital.

We have a hundred-acre field, which is approachable in a hundred different ways, and there is no way of keeping such agents out of the reservation. I had my Captain of the Watch made a Deputy United States Marshal. I had my head orderly made a constable for the county. They helped me to maintain order outside the reservation.

The matter of compensation has been a big problem with all of us. I recall that about the first time I got “in bad” with my patients was early in the game. I was waited on by a delegation of patients in my office one morning, who asked if I were properly quoted in the morning paper. I had not seen the paper.

A day or two before, a committee of Legion men called at my office (we had most happy relations with the local Legion heads). One of this Committee was the editor of a local paper. Among the general things we discussed was the abuse of compensation. I said I wished we had some law like Canada, whereby all but one-fourth of the compensation could be withheld, as I believed that ten dollars a month was enough for a sick man in the hospital. This was discussed and it sounded reasonable.

The next day, to my surprise, the editor of the local paper printed the story of my recommendation; and the young chap, thinking I suppose to give me the credit for the thought, quoted me freely.

The soldiers appointed a committee to wait on me. They wanted to know if I thought it fair to the United States soldier. They said it was their money and that they proposed to spend it as they saw fit.

Out of this controversy grow consideration by the Legion; and in course of time that Legion Post sent a committee man to Washington, who had a long conference with Mr. Sweet; and indirectly I may be much to be condemned or praised for introducing into the Sweet Bill the measure of withholding compensation. Our committee man who went up there stated that it was a rather new thought to Mr. Sweet and that he waved it aside at first, but that later he showed interest and finally said he was going to rewrite his bill, incorporating that idea.

But it did not go nearly as far as I recommended; that is, the adoption of the Canadian form of withholding all but one-fourth. There is no need to discuss that. Mr. Sweet said it was illegal; that compensation is a wage; but he compromised by saying we could fine the men.

Regarding my drastic order, I might add that I do allow the agents of the banks to come in, and I am proud to say that we do handle much of our trouble by depositing money either for checking accounts or savings. I think that about forty per cent of our men are carrying savings accounts in the local banks.