Part 178

Question 2--At what place was the conversation held?

Witness refused to answer.

Question 3--Have you seen the members alluded to, or any of them, since you first appeared before this committee on Saturday last?

Witness likewise refused to answer this interrogatory.

Whereupon it is ordered by the committee that the Sergeant-at-Arms detain said Rounsavell in his custody until the pleasure of the House of Representatives relative to the conduct of said witness can be ascertained.

After the report was read, Mr. GRUNDY offered the following resolution for consideration:

"Resolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms be directed to bring the said Nathaniel Rounsavell to the bar of the House, there to answer such questions as may be propounded to him by the Speaker, under the direction of the House."

Much desultory discussion took place as to the mode of proceeding in this case, the form of the proposed order, its conformity to precedent, &c., in which Messrs. PITKIN, LACOCK, SHEFFEY, TROUP, TALLMADGE, GRUNDY, FISK, and WIDGERY, took part. This discussion resulted in the proposition of a preamble to the motion, by Mr. GRUNDY, reciting the grounds of the order.

The motion was then agreed to.

On motion of Mr. GRUNDY, the select committee were then discharged from the further consideration of the subject.

On motion of Mr. GRUNDY, it was resolved that several interrogatories contained in a paper which he offered to the House, should be proposed to the witness.

Mr. BURWELL suggested the propriety of allowing this person counsel; but withdrew the suggestion, on its being remarked, that this person appeared before the House in the character of a witness, not a criminal, and that it was not usual for a witness to appear by counsel.

Mr. Rounsavell was then brought to the bar of the House by the Sergeant-at-Arms.

After some hesitation on the part of the witness to take the oath required, he was sworn, in the usual form of oath administered to witnesses.

The first interrogatory agreed to by the House was put to him by the Speaker, in the following words: "From the conversation of what members did you collect the information of which you have spoken in your deposition before the committee?"

To this question the witness answered in these words: "I refused to answer that question when before the committee, and I continue steadfast in that refusal."

The witness was ordered to withdraw, and the Speaker reported his answer to the House; having deemed it unnecessary, on his refusal to answer the first, to propound any other of the questions.

Mr. SEYBERT, after stating his indisposition to encroach on the rights of the citizen, which, however, must yield to the superior rights of the nation, which required them to act in this case, suggested the propriety of recommitting this person to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until further order should be taken by the House, and preventing him in the mean time from communicating with those from whose conversation he might have derived his information. With this view he offered the following resolution:

Resolved, That Nathaniel Rounsavell be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until further order, and that in the mean time he be precluded from all intercourse or conversation with any person or persons other than the Sergeant-at-Arms.

The question on striking out so much of the motion as precludes the witness from conversation with any one unless in the presence and hearing of the Sergeant-at-Arms, was decided as follows--yeas 62; nays 22.

The question was then stated on the motion as just amended, viz:

"That Nathaniel Rounsavell be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until the further orders of the House."

The question was taken on the resolution, and it passed by a very large majority.

TUESDAY, April 7.

Publication of Secret Proceedings.

A letter was laid before the House from Nathaniel Rounsavell, the witness now in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms. The letter disclaims any intention to have violated the respect due to the House by the publication which he had made; it declares that the conversation which the writer had was inadvertent, as he believes, on the part of the members who partook in it, and entirely without any intention on their part, as he believes, to violate the order of the House; that he had been refused by the committee an opportunity to explain his testimony; and that his only motive for refusing to answer was, that if he were to answer the question as propounded to him, it might have the effect of criminating those who had committed no crime, and from whose conversation, but for previous and subsequent knowledge, he could not have ascertained that an embargo had been the subject of discussion, &c.

Mr. SMILIE said it was in his power, he believed, to make a statement to the House which would procure a discharge of this man. Had the original motion succeeded yesterday, he should then have risen and stated what he was now about to say, because he had been determined that the man should not suffer. I do believe, said Mr. S., that the substance of the information which Mr. Rounsavell published in his paper, he did derive from conversation of myself with others; whether he got other particulars from other members, I know not. The circumstance was this: The night the embargo law passed this House, I met with a member who was absent, and ignorant of what had passed. Upon meeting with this gentleman he inquired of me what had been done? I briefly told him, and I have reason to believe Mr. Rounsavell was in such a situation as to hear what I said. Having made this statement, I will make a few other remarks. I had a seat in Congress when each of the former embargoes under this constitution were laid. The mode in which they came before the House was in those cases such as to enable us to keep them secret. In every instance except the present, the first intimation relative to the embargo came from the President to the House in a confidential shape, and the doors were immediately closed. What was the fact in this case? The measure originated in the Committee of Foreign Relations. It was proposed there that it should be kept secret; when a member of the committee rose and declared he would not be bound--he would not keep it a secret. This destroyed at once the efficacy of any such determination on the part of the committee; we might as well have discussed the subject with open doors as with closed doors, had it not been from respect to the Message of the President recommending a different course. What was published in the Herald, therefore, was of no importance; when the subject of discussion was known to all, it was of very little consequence to know who was chairman, and who spoke, and how many voted. If the House must have a victim, and it appears to me some gentlemen would be very willing to have one, I offer myself in the room of this man; he has suffered too much already. The quo animo constitutes the essence of every crime; it cannot then be supposed, after the warm support I have given to this measure, that I could have any unfriendly intention towards it. I well know the powers of this House; and I know the limits of those powers. The House will take such steps as they think proper. I have taken my ground; I am prepared for the event. He would further observe that in relation to the suspicion of members having influenced Rounsavell to refuse to answer, that he had not seen him from the time of the conversation he had stated until after his appearing before the committee and refusing to answer.

Mr. Smilie was asked to name the member of the Committee of Foreign Relations, to whom he had just alluded, and replied that his name was no secret--it was Mr. Randolph.