Part 278

Mr. KITCHELL was entirely against the object of the report.

Mr. GILES said, that he might have taken up wrong impressions, but he thought the matter worth trying. It was a thing of experiment, by which he believed that the printer would make money. He acknowledged that, for some time past, several of the reports had been pretty correct. It is better to let them go out as they are, than to stop them altogether. He would not wish to press the motion, if it was to meet with opposition from several gentlemen who had this day spoken against it. He moved that the committee should rise, and the further consideration of the report be deferred till Monday.

Mr. W. SMITH said, it was admitted on all sides, that it was highly important for the people to receive the most accurate information of the proceedings of the House, and that the debates were, in general, extremely misrepresented. Was it not, then, the duty of the House to remedy this evil, and to adopt such measures as would transmit to the people in every part of the United States the most accurate information of the conduct of their Representatives? The House had now an opportunity of obtaining the services of a gentleman peculiarly distinguished for the rare talent of reporting with accuracy public debates; the compensation which would be adequate to such useful and laborious service, was beyond the ability of any printer; the House ought therefore to contribute towards it; the sum required was a trifle, when compared with the advantages; it was no object. The only question, then, was, whether the stenographer ought to be an officer of the House; in that capacity he certainly would be more easily restrained from the commission of any wilful misrepresentation. Mr. S. did not feel the force of the objections against the report. It had been said that, although the members were now misrepresented, yet, they had it in their power to publish corrections; but these corrections were often overlooked, while the misrepresentation was operating very injuriously to the character of the member; this was generally the case in places remote from the seat of Government; the mangled account of a debate was republished in a distant paper, and the correction, if it reached the distant printer, was generally disregarded. Among the opponents to this report, Mr. S. said he was surprised to find the gentleman who represented this city, (Mr. SWANWICK,) who, more than any other member, should have withdrawn his opposition to the measure proposed; that gentleman's constituents had it in their power, at any time, to hear the debates of Congress; they were on the spot; ought he not, then, in candor, to assist in facilitating to the remote citizens the means of obtaining the best knowledge of the proceedings, and the most correct statement of the discussions of the House? Ought they, from their remoteness, to be kept in the dark, or to be furnished with such light as would only mislead? Had they not a claim on the House to adopt such means as would enable the citizens in every State to judge of the propriety of public measures? The member from this city had another exclusive advantage; if misrepresented, he could correct the error, and the correction would be read; that was not the case with the members from the remoter States, whose reputation might be injured by misrepresentation, without a similar advantage: the member from this city was in the midst of his constituents; he had daily opportunities of setting right any misstatement by personal explanation.

Mr. SMITH said, he did not agree with some gentlemen, that it was sufficient for the people to know what laws were passed, without knowing the previous discussions; he thought, on the contrary, the favorable or unfavorable impression of a law on the public mind, would depend, in a great degree, on the reasons assigned for and against it in debate, and the people ought to know those reasons. When a law passes, imposing a tax, would not the people be reconciled if they saw, from the discussions of the House, that such tax was unavoidable, and that the particular mode of taxation was the best which could be devised? And ought this information to depend entirely on the caprice or convenience of the reporters, who attended when it pleased them, and who published just as much of the debate as they found leisure or patience to accomplish? Mr. S. said he was convinced that the errors which had excited so much complaint, were not the effect of design, but merely of inadequacy to the task. Very few were competent to such a business, which required peculiar skill in stenography, very laborious application, and a clear comprehension of the subject-matter of debate. It could not be expected that persons thus qualified would devote their whole time to this business, without an ample reward. The report was objected to because there was novelty in the plan; it was true the House of Commons of England had no such officer, but their practice was not a fit precedent for us on this occasion, for they admitted no person to write down, in the House, their proceedings; their debates were taken from memory. This House, on the contrary, had, from its first institution, facilitated, by every accommodation, the reporting their proceedings. The thing was not altogether, however, without precedent. During the existence of the National Assembly of France, there were officers of the House who composed a daily work called the Logography, which was an exact account of the debates of that body. It had been asked, what control the House were to have over this officer? He answered that the stenographer would be liable to be censured or displaced, if he should be guilty of wilful misrepresentation. It would be always easy to discriminate between a casual inadvertence and a criminal misstatement; the officer's character and talents, his responsibility to the House, and his oath to report with impartiality, would be a sufficient pledge of his accuracy. Mr. S. seriously believed that the character of the House had suffered from the erroneous statements which had gone abroad. He wished to guard against this evil in future; he was willing, for himself, that every syllable he uttered within those walls should be carried to every part of the Union, but he deprecated misrepresentation. He was anxious that the truth should be known in relation to every act of the Government; for he was as satisfied that the affection and confidence of the people in this Government would increase with the promulgation of truth, as that whatever it had lost of that affection and confidence, was owing altogether to the propagation of detraction and calumny. It was under these impressions that he had originally brought forward the proposition and that he now recommended the report, and having heard no reasons to change his sentiments of the expediency of the measure, he should persist in supporting it.

The motion by Mr. GILES was agreed to. The committee rose, and, a few minutes after, the House adjourned to Monday.

MONDAY, February 1.

Indian Trading Houses.

The engrossed bill for establishing trading houses for the Indian tribes was taken into consideration. The first blank was for the gross sum to be appropriated for the general objects of the bill. It was moved to fill this blank with $150,000.

Mr. WILLIAMS spoke in favor of the bill.

Mr. PARKER supported the general provision of the bill, and urged the necessity of an immediate attention to the subject. He calculated on a surplus in the appropriation for the War Department to provide for this object.

Mr. HARPER moved that the bill should be recommitted. He then entered into a general consideration of the principles of the bill, which he reprobated altogether. Alluding to the general objects of commerce, he said that public bodies never manage these matters without loss. He adverted to the repairs of roads, construction of canals, &c.; all these objects prosper under private individual direction, but when entered into by public bodies nothing is ever brought to perfection, and the public money is lost. He applied these ideas to the plan of the bill. Persons at fifteen hundred or two thousand miles distance, are to be intrusted with public property to a large amount. It is not in human wisdom to guard against frauds and impositions; no check or control can be devised which will be found adequate to repressing private rapacity. Mr. H., therefore, wished the bill recommitted, for the purpose of an entire new modification. If the motion should obtain, he should then move a resolution providing for a loan to individuals for the purpose.

Mr. SWANWICK supported the general principle of the bill, and reprobated the idea of loans to individuals; he considered such a plan as one of the worst kind of sinking funds. The plan is an experiment; it is not, perhaps, possible to predict what will be the result; but the object is worth the trial and worthy the attention of the Legislature. He considered the objections against the plan of the bill as applying with greater force against the proposed substitute.

Mr. S. SMITH said, when the gentleman from South Carolina made his motion for a recommitment, he had supposed he would have accompanied the motion with some reasons; but since he had heard what he offered as reasons, he found himself confirmed in his opinion of the inexpediency of his motion. Mr. S. said, the only reason for the commitment was, that the principle of the bill might be changed, by individuals being substituted for the Government, that is, by loaning the money to private persons for the purposes of the trade. He was entirely opposed to this principle. Public debtors are the worst kind of citizens. These persons, after having expended or lost the money, will be coming forward with their petitions to be released from their bonds. He did not wish to increase the business of the Committee of Claims.

Mr. SWIFT enlarged on the idea suggested by Mr. HARPER. He thought it infinitely preferable to leave the business to the enterprise and resources of individuals.

Mr. HARPER rose in reply to Mr. SMITH. He entered into a further consideration and defence of the plan he had proposed as a substitute.

Mr. DEARBORN objected to Mr. HARPER's idea; he saw no sufficient reason to support the preference that gentleman gave to a loan to individuals. He was in favor of the general principle of the bill; he thought it economical to appropriate money for the object of cultivating good understanding and harmony with the Indians, but should vote for the bill only on the condition of a reduction of the Military Establishment.

Mr. GILES entered more largely into a consideration of the principle of the bill. He had no opinion of governmental bargains--he believed they always turned out losing bargains. The clause which provides that the original stock shall not be diminished, he conceived, would operate against the general object of the bill, if adhered to; but this he did not contemplate; he supposed that it would terminate in an annual provision. Mr. G. alluded to the PRESIDENT's Speech, a clause of which had been recited; he did not consider that, or a former recommendation of this matter, as binding on the House. If the PRESIDENT's Speech is considered as the political Bible of the Government, the case is different; but he presumed no person was disposed to assert this. He considered the House as perfectly free to adopt or reject the proposition. With respect to the effects of the measure, gentlemen had differed in their predictions. Predictions which were the nearest to the effects produced, may be considered as the result of the greater political sagacity. He would venture to predict that the whole sum proposed to be appropriated would be sunk in three years. With respect to the fund contemplated from the surplus of the War Department appropriation, he considered it as altogether illusory; there is no such surplus, none had heretofore been found, and he presumed none ever would. For though the number of troops voted had never been raised, yet the whole of the money appropriated was always expended.

Some further remarks were made by several members, and then the motion for recommitting the bill being put, was lost--52 to 34.

Mr. SWIFT then renewed his motion for a postponement. This, after a few remarks from that gentleman, and a short reply from Mr. GILBERT, in support of the bill, was negatived.

The motion for filling the blank with $150,000, was then put and agreed to, fifty-six members rising in the affirmative.

On reading the section in which the blank for the penalty is included, Mr. VENABLE moved for a partial recommitment of the bill, for the purpose of new-modifying the section. This motion gave rise to a variety of observations, in the course of which the motion was extended to a general commitment. This motion being put, was lost.

The motion then was, to recommit the second, fourth, and sixth sections. The second section was recommitted. The fourth section provides that the capital stock of the United States embarked in this business shall not be diminished. Mr. VENABLE's object was to have the section so modified as to blend the interest of the individual who is to conduct the business with that of the public. Mr. S. SMITH said the motion went to destroy the bill, for no person would engage in the business on such a plan. The motion for committing the fourth section was lost. The sixth section assigns the sum of $150,000 to be appropriated for the general objects of the bill. The motion to recommit this section was negatived.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the second section, Mr. MUHLENBERG in the chair.

Mr. VENABLE moved that the section should be altered to read, that the agent should give bonds to the amount in value of the goods committed to his charge.

Mr. J. SMITH supposed that the sum should be sufficient to cover the amount of the goods which may at any time be found in the hands of the agents; from ten to fifteen or twenty thousand dollars, he supposed, might be sufficient for this purpose.

Mr. DEARBORN suggested the idea of leaving this part of the business to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. He moved to amend the clause accordingly.

Mr. VENABLE's motion was lost. Mr. DEARBORN's motion was agreed to.

The committee then rose, and the Chairman reported the amendment, which was adopted by the House. It was then ordered that the bill be again engrossed and read the third time to-day.