Part 246

Mr. NICHOLAS moved an amendment, and which was seconded, for striking out the latter part of the resolution proposed by Mr. MURRAY. This made it merely a reference of the Message from the PRESIDENT to the Committee of the Whole, and omitted all notice whatever of the Report from the Secretary of War.

Mr. SEDGWICK really thought this a squeamishness for which he saw no manner of foundation.

Mr. GILES arose. He said that a gentleman from Massachusetts had asserted that some members considered the whole constitution as entirely in this House. This imputation was a thing of so serious a nature, that Mr. G. wished the gentleman to point out the person to whom he alluded. If it respected Mr. G. himself, the assertion was unfounded. It was not true. He had the highest respect for every branch of the constitution. This was a charge frequently made by one side of the House. Gentlemen had called the contents of this paper information. He saw in it nothing but what the House knew without the assistance of the Secretary. He considered the report as an effort upon the opinion of this House, as an attack upon its independence, and that in a very indelicate way. He thought the report in all respects unworthy of the notice of the House. He hoped that this paper would not be committed, but that the Message of the PRESIDENT would be so.

"That all persons who shall be assembled, or embodied in arms, on any lands belonging to Indians, out of the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory south of the Ohio, for the purpose of warring against the Indians, or committing depredations upon any Indian town, or persons, or property, shall thereby become liable and subject to the rules and articles of war, which are or shall be established for the government of the troops of the United States."

This was a section of a bill which the Senate passed the last session, entitled "An act for the more effectual protection of the South-western frontiers," but it was disagreed to by the House.]

Mr. KITTERA considered this as entirely a dispute about words, or plainly about nothing at all. Gentlemen from Virginia were more jealous of the Executive than even the constitution itself. Mr. K. was satisfied that the PRESIDENT had a right to interfere in the Legislative proceedings with his opinion and advice. There was neither principle nor precedent for the amendment of Mr. NICHOLAS. The dispute was merely about words, because if the Message of the PRESIDENT was referred to a Committee of the Whole, the report in question would, in any case, be referred along with it.

Mr. AMES rose again to make some remarks on the danger of extending too far the privileges of the House of Representatives over the other House. The moment that this House is turned into a Convention, there is an end of liberty. As to impropriety and indelicacy of style, he could wish that the cognizance of members might extend to memorials addressed to the House, that we may not have addresses disrespectful to it. He entirely vindicated the conduct of the PRESIDENT as to this matter, and saw a peculiar propriety in his having made the communication at present on the table.

The question was loudly called for; but Mr. NICHOLAS rose in reply to Mr. AMES. Would any man call this a communication from the Executive? Mr. AMES spoke a few words in a low tone of voice. Mr. N. proceeded, "The gentleman prevaricates." "I prevaricate, sir!" rejoined Mr. A. Mr. N said, that at best he went off from the point. As to the precedent produced by Mr. W. SMITH, it was quite inapplicable. It bore no resemblance or connection to the one before the House. The other adduced by Mr. DAYTON was, he admitted, in point. But that gentleman would admit that it occurred in the infancy of the constitution, which was an excuse for it. He hoped that the amendment would go through.

Mr. TRACY quoted something which Mr. NICHOLAS had said. That gentleman immediately answered, that he had been misquoted. I know, said Mr. TRACY, as well as that gentleman, what he said. Mr. NICHOLAS got up a second time, and repeated what he affirmed were the words which he had really spoken. He did not say so before, said Mr. TRACY, but I am content that he should say so now. I only beg that he may not interrupt me. As to the motion for striking out one-half of the resolution, Mr. TRACY looked upon it as out of all propriety. The PRESIDENT had sent a letter of two lines, enclosing a report from the Secretary of War. To refer the former without the latter, would be like referring to any person the superscription of a letter, but adding, at the same time, you must not look at the inside of it. Mr. T. did not care from whom the report came. If it contained useful information, that was all he wanted to know. And, supposing it had been sent from a Democratic society, that of itself would with Mr. T. be no reason to refuse it a reference. He then observed how much more deference had been paid by that House to Democratic societies than was now paid by some gentlemen to the PRESIDENT. Much care had been taken that a vote of censure should not be passed on them. It looked as if gentlemen wanted to grasp all power within this body. The amendment was wrong in point both of principle and practice. To refer a mere superscription, (for the letter of the PRESIDENT was nothing more,) would look strange enough. The resolution, as amended, was in a state of hostility with common sense.

Mr. LYMAN was in favor of the amendment for striking out the words in the latter part of the motion. He thought it improper to refer to a Committee of the whole House the report of the late Secretary of War, because it was of an amphibious nature. It was not a mere official statement of supposed facts, but the reasoning on these facts. He was sensible that precedents could be found on the journals, which sanctioned a commitment of similar reports; but, for his part, he had ever thought the practice improper, and he must meet the question as it appeared to him. He said, that the constitution authorized the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, nay, it made it a duty incumbent on him, to give information, from time to time, of the state of the Union. He was also equally required to suggest, for the consideration of the House, whatever he thought expedient; but there was a most material difference between communicating information, and argument or inferences deduced from it. The official information would always, without doubt, be reports from the different departments, and, therefore, would have the credit and weight which was due to it; but whenever plans or arguments were communicated, they should have the responsibility attached to the signature of the PRESIDENT. What was the case in the present instance? Had the Executive avowed the plan of the Secretary of War, or his reasoning? He was persuaded, from the communication itself, that the PRESIDENT did not at all espouse the report as his own wishes or opinion; for there was nothing in the Message implying that the report had been officially required, or that any one sentiment was from the high authority of the Executive. As to the Secretary of War, Mr. L. had a respect for him, and believed that he had discharged the duties of his office with ability and fidelity, but it implied no censure to decline hearing his arguments. All that the House wanted was facts and information. They were fully competent to the suitable deductions. As to the observation of his colleague, that the House were abridging the powers of the Executive, it was so far from being the case, they were only reclaiming what had been remitted and disused; and he had no fears that they would abuse it.

Mr. HILLHOUSE thought that gentlemen were spending time in a very trifling way. It is the duty of the House to hear information from every quarter. He was against the amendment.

Mr. J. WADSWORTH said, that some gentlemen had been offended at the comparison in the report between the North American settlers and the Spaniards. Mr. W. remarked, that if gentlemen would look into two historians, the one of Virginia and the other of New England, they would see bad enough work. If the Spaniards, or any other nation in history, had acted worse, he was much at a loss to comprehend what their proceedings could have been. As to Pennsylvania, much had been said of the purchases from the Indians of their lands; but where was the difference between shooting an Indian and catching him in a trap? And, as to the conduct of the Pennsylvanians, when they drove the Indians back to Pittsburg, that was sufficiently cruel. We have murdered them from the beginning, said Mr. W. As to the question on the amendment, he knew perfectly well that the PRESIDENT had acted exactly conformable both to the constitution and the practice of the House. To refuse committing the report of the Secretary along with the Message, would be an affront, not to the Secretary, but to the PRESIDENT.

Mr. MADISON looked upon the expression, as to the Spaniards, as being extremely exceptionable. It had escaped, perhaps, inadvertently. The Secretary would not have used it in a report to the House, nor would the PRESIDENT have employed it, as from himself, in any Message to the House. Mr. M. was for the amendment. It was natural enough that the Secretary, when communicating his sentiments in a private manner, should make use of illustrations for enforcing his opinion that he would not have adopted in an official paper.

Mr. PAGE was persuaded that the Report from the Secretary of War contained nothing new, or, if new, nothing which may not as well be used when in the hands of members, as when in those of a Committee of the Whole. If the amendment had been to throw the Message under the table, more warmth could not have been shown, in charging the opposers of the motion for reference to a Committee of the Whole with indecency to the PRESIDENT, and with a design at usurpation of his power, &c. It is said, that a jealousy has been betrayed by some members of an encroachment on the privileges of this House. Surely, a most unnecessary and unreasonable suspicion has also been betrayed by others, of a design in the gentlemen who supported the motion of Mr. NICHOLAS, to encroach on the powers of the Executive. Expressions have been used not consistent with decency and order. Gentlemen have been charged with a factious spirit, favoring indecent remonstrances, and with slighting and treating contemptuously the Message from the PRESIDENT. Some members have, at another time, been charged with speaking, not to the House, but to their constituents, in order to gain their votes at an approaching election. Mr. P. said, that his respect for the Government, and for the PRESIDENT, was equal to that of any man in the House. He was far from wishing to reflect on the late Secretary of War. Mr. P. had never, by any vote, censured his conduct, and he entertained no wish for his resignation. But he was at liberty to think the report given to the PRESIDENT wrong, the communication of it to the House as unnecessary, and even if necessary, as sufficiently acted upon when printed and put into the hands of the members. He might have no doubt respecting the constitutionality of the Message from the PRESIDENT, or of the report of the Secretary to him. He might require no precedents from the Journals to prove that the motion for referring that Message was perfectly in order. But he might doubt whether the substance of the report was of such a nature as to require the consideration of the Committee of the Whole. He might also doubt whether the report was of sufficient importance to require the most mature consideration. There might be circumstances attending the manner of its introduction, as some members allege that there were, which render the report improper to be referred to a Committee of the Whole. It would be a precedent for referring every Message, and that would be attended with unnecessary delay. It will be paying a superfluous compliment. If the information came from the poorest citizen, and was sufficiently important, he would refer it, but though it came from the PRESIDENT or Senate, and contained nothing which, in his opinion, required a commitment, he should vote against it. Mr. P. was for the amendment of Mr. NICHOLAS.

Mr. S. SMITH remarked, that the principal objection made by the gentleman who spoke last, (Mr. PAGE,) to the commitment of the report was, that it contains nothing new. The observation will apply with equal justness to a great part of what has been said on the subject before the House. He wished, therefore, that the question might be immediately taken.

The amendment was negatived without a division, but by a very great majority. The motion, as it originally stood, was then put and carried.

TUESDAY, January 27.

Reduction of Salaries.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the motion of the twenty-third instant, "that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill or bills to amend the act entitled 'An act for establishing the salaries of the Executive Officers of Government, with their assistants and clerks;' and an act 'for allowing compensation to the members of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, and to the officers of both Houses;' and to reduce all such salaries as, in the opinion of the said committee, after having made due inquiry, ought to be reduced."

Mr. CLAIBORNE said: A worthy gentleman from Maryland, the other day, suggested an amendment to the proposition now before you, which I understood to contemplate the increase of some salaries; and, if that gentleman can reconcile it to himself and his constituents, let him move and carry it, if he can. For my part, I am pleased with the proposition as it is, and yet it may have great imperfections. It is very common for fond parents to be blind to the imperfections of their own offspring; and, as this is a production of my own, it is probable that I may be under the same delusive prejudices, but I hope that cheerful acquiescence which I have always shown to the majority, has sufficiently evinced that I am no bigot to my own opinions. I said, the other day, that I was determined, if the proposition must die, it should be by assassination; but as, in this, a degree of guilt is implied, and might be attended with serious consequences to those concerned in it, I should be satisfied to give it a fair trial, and, if it must die, that it may be by legal and fair adjudication, or, in other words, after full and fair discussion of its merits.

We now have fairly before us a proposition that contemplates a redress of these grievances, which, since the adoption of the present form of Government, have been a subject of grievous complaint and heartburning amongst citizens of the United States. Many of them, and, I believe, a very great majority, conceive that the exorbitant salaries established to the Legislative, Executive, Judiciary, and their assistants, are not consistent with, or can possibly contribute to the existence or well-being of a Republican Government, which, in its nature, holds out the idea of equality and justice, but which, in the present mode of administration, cannot fail to have a direct opposite tendency, inasmuch as the very profuse salaries that all who have the good fortune to get places under the pay and influence of the present Administration, if they make a prudent use of them, must ultimately enrich and place them in a situation so far above the vast bulk of the citizens, whose industrious fingers are not permitted a single dip into those very coffers which have been swelled by filching a little from that hard-gotten pittance already far inadequate to the necessary but very ordinary subsistence of their families, as at last to endanger the very existence or shadow of this glorious and dear-bought Government, that has already raised the drooping and once-dejected heads of the poor American citizens, who now glory more in having thrown off that subordination that was assumed and exercised over them under the late detestable Monarchical Government, by their rulers, or public officers, than even in their lives and fortunes. Men begin to know the inherent rights of human nature. They have dipped into and tasted a little of the sweets of political regeneration, and, amongst all classes of your citizens, you may discover a zeal that amounts to enthusiasm, that lives and burns and grows almost to a prodigy. Instances are not wanting, sir, to evince that thousands of those who were not fond of this Government at its adoption, are now, on all occasions, ready to step forth in its support, and the laws that are passed consistent therewith. But this does, by no means, argue that they will submit for ever to repeated abuses of the Government, which may ultimately tend to its overthrow; and exorbitant salaries, with other profuse appropriations of the public money, at a time when the nation is groaning under an immense weight of foreign and domestic debt, which (calculating upon the blessings of peace, and of course, a very increasing revenue, not reasonably to be calculated on so long a time,) it is agreed on all hands will take a term not less than thirty-two years to extinguish. Here I shall again be told, that the price of house-rent, and every other necessary of life, has increased, and may continue to increase, so as to drive all your officers out of your service. To this I beg leave to answer, that, if you continue such high salaries, or increase them, as in some instances it is asked, and because of the present enhanced price of the necessaries of life, I think the evil will increase in proportion to the immense sum of money that you throw into circulation, for a redundancy of that, or any thing else, will always diminish the value; and, if the present custom of disbursing the public money is persisted in, the whole wealth of the United States must shortly centre in and about Philadelphia! But, sir, by the adoption of public economy, we may shortly become able to obviate this great evil, and make our disbursements more diffusive, by paying out money to those who have demands upon your justice, distributed over the United States, if any but those who reside around the seat of Government have any demand upon your justice or goodness. I am apprised that the proposition is a very unpopular one here, and that many will perhaps knit their brows at me; but, sir, when I entered into public life, it was without any cringing views. I meant not to court smiles, or fear frowns, and I had no doubt but I should meet my share of both. When I gain the former by proper conduct, I have pleasure in it; when the latter by improper conduct, I am sorry for it. But it will be much to be lamented if ever we see the day when the people shall be suffered to complain from year to year of any grievance, and their Representatives shall be ashamed, or afraid, to make those grievances known, or ask redress, lest they be laughed out of countenance, or lose favor at Court. But so hardy am I, if you prefer that expression, that, while I have the honor of a seat in this House, none of those considerations shall ever deter me from stepping forth in their behalf; but, be the result of this proposition what it may, I now warn you against evils that may come, as you have been heretofore warned of evils that have come, for the obligations of power and submission are reciprocal. It is as much your duty to pass wholesome laws, as it is the duty of the people to obey them. And now, having done my duty, I shall take my seat, content to abide the result, but hope a committee will be appointed.

Mr. NICHOLAS declared that he would be very willing to vote for the appointment of such a committee, if he could see any good purpose to be derived from it, or if the gentleman who laid the resolution on the table could give him any information that tended to prove its expediency. For his own part he had but a small family, and of that he had left one-half behind him in Virginia, yet he found that his allowance as a member of the Legislature was barely sufficient for supporting this half of his family, though he lived with as much economy as he ever had done in his life. He was certain that he should not take one shilling of public money home with him to Virginia. He requested gentlemen to remember that it was not the present Congress who had given six dollars per day to themselves, but that it had been fixed by their predecessors, and fixed at a time when living was fifty per cent. cheaper than it is now.

Mr. BOUDINOT observed, that he should not have troubled the committee on this question, had it not been for several considerations particularly applicable to himself. He was as impartial on the present debate as any member on the floor. After the close of this session of Congress, he never expected to receive a farthing of public money again, and therefore no interest of his own could sway his judgment improperly to object against the resolution on the table. He had been among the number of those members who originally were for fixing the compensation of members of Congress at a less sum than six dollars; not because he thought it beyond the amount of their expenses, but, from an idea of the then deranged state of the finances, and that, if sacrifices were to be made, they should begin with this House. He appealed to his uniform conduct for six years past, to prove that he had always opposed an increase of salaries or other public expenses, when the interest of the Union did not require it. He did not doubt that the gentleman who brought forward this resolution thought he was doing his duty in advocating it; and Mr. B. thought it was equally the duty of the committee to be convinced that they were not wasting their time in unnecessarily proceeding in business, without having some foundation for rational inquiry.

Mr. B. did not doubt but there were uninformed individuals, who might object to six dollars per day; but he was confident that the well-informed among the citizens of the United States, and those who reflected on the subject, would think (at the present day at least) it was not more than would barely pay the reasonable expenses of gentlemen who attended to their duty here in a proper manner. Almost every article of consumption was from twenty to thirty per cent. higher now than it was at the commencement of the Government.

The Constitution of the United States, as the act of the people and the public voice, contemplated a compensation to the members of Congress. Did not this mean something more than the bare discharge of their expenses? Yet Congress had not gone beyond it.

When Congress sat at New York, Mr. B. said that he was in a situation more favorable in point of expense than any gentleman on the floor, who did not reside in that city. He boarded with a near relation, and was in a manner in his own family; and, although he paid the usual price of boarding as at other places, yet there were a thousand nameless small articles which saved him many advances. He was within sixteen miles of his own family, from whence he received many things that prevented his laying out money. During three sessions, he kept an exact and faithful account of his expenditures, and, at the end of that time, the balance was but 43s. 4d.; but on which side of the question his memory did not allow him to say. At present, he was also under very peculiar advantages, yet he was confident that, at the end of the session, he should not have any balance in his favor from his compensation as a member. Mr. B. appealed to every gentleman's own knowledge, and particularly to the gentleman who made the motion, if he thought that what he received would more than pay his expenses.

Gentlemen were often crying out against an Aristocracy in this country; yet measures of this kind tended to establish one, by reducing the compensation of members, so that no citizen but the rich and affluent could attend as a Representative in Congress. This certainly was the most effectual way of bringing about a dangerous Aristocracy in the United States. Should not men of abilities, though in the middle walks of life, be encouraged to come forward and yield their services to their country, without being dependent on any person or set of men whatever? Is it not sufficient that their time and talents are given to the public? Must they pay their expenses too?

Mr. B. was aware that the resolution proposed related to the officers of Government as well as members of Congress, but he had confined his remarks to the last, as the part of the subject he was best acquainted with. He begged gentlemen to look around and point out the public officer who received more than a reasonable reward for his services. Professional men, of the first abilities, were absolutely necessary to carry on the public business; and could any one, fit for his office, be shown who could not do full as well, if not much better, in the exercise of his profession in private life than he did in the public service, if pecuniary matters were his only object? In short, (Mr. B. said,) this House was placed between Scylla and Charybdis. The public officers were complaining, and even resigning, for want of sufficient compensation for their services; on the other hand, an attempt was now made to reduce their salaries still lower, on the supposed clamors of the people. Mr. B. did not believe they could be denominated those of the people; neither did he see any evidence of the fact. He did not consider the complaints of a few individuals as the public voice. Ought not the gentlemen to come forward with some kind of calculations or estimates to have shown that certain salaries were too high, or more than the services performed were entitled to? This had not been done; but the committee were urged, at this important moment, to proceed to an inquiry, which every gentleman on the floor already knew as well as he could do by the most labored investigation. He therefore concluded that, to agree to the resolution, would be a waste of the short time that yet remained of the session, and an unwise measure. Mr. B. would have contented himself with joining the committee in a silent vote on this subject, but he thought the observations made in support of the measure ought to receive some answer, if not to convince the committee, yet to satisfy their constituents that there could exist no necessity for a present inquiry of this nature.