Part 218

The SPEAKER observed, that Mr. SMILIE had risen first.

Mr. LEE said, that the gentleman from Pennsylvania had already spoken twice on this subject and he insisted for order. [Mr. L. referred to the proceedings of Saturday, for Mr. SMILIE had not spoke any before, this day.] Our time, said Mr. L., is too precious to be wasted in talking, when every gentleman is competent to give his vote already. I call for the question. His opinion was, that the money was not yet wanted; and that it was being too provident to vote for taxes, before they were required by necessity.

Mr. W. SMITH contended, that there would be a very considerable deficiency. He asked, who would lend us money, if there was such a difficulty in establishing funds to pay the interest of it?

Mr. WADSWORTH hoped that the bill would not be altogether thrown aside. There was part of it that he approved, and part of it that he did not perfectly approve. In discussing this question, much stress has been laid upon the two and a half per cent. of additional impost on importations, as if that would be a fund for the increase of revenue, and supersede the necessity for some other taxes. Mr. W. assigned his reasons for believing that this supposition was perfectly chimerical. Within the last six months, American vessels and property had been captured by the British privateers in the West Indies, to the extent of one million of dollars. This will make the importations less, by at least five hundred thousand dollars, and, of consequence, destroy a great part both of the old and new impost. Property to the extent of one-fourth of a million of dollars, perhaps, had likewise been seized by the Spaniards, and other nations had most likely taken as much more. The total loss to American commerce could not, therefore, be less than fifteen hundred thousand dollars. The imposts on importations must, therefore, be very much reduced; as from Britain, for example, there would not, in his judgment, be one-fourth part of the imports, from this time to the first of December, that had been formerly. And no man could imagine that, at the most, they would exceed one-half of their former amount. The British merchants would be afraid, on account of the matters that had been proposed. These people, they would say, have been laying embargoes, and speaking of sequestration, and indemnification. We must be cautious. Mr. W. added, that it was possible enough, that America might, in the fall, be at war with Britain; and then impost and importation will fall together. These were his motives for believing that the two and a half per cent. would be of no great consequence. It had been said, that the ten per cent. would produce a large augmentation. He did not, from the diminished quantity of imports, believe that it would be so much, by twenty or thirty per cent. as the old seven and half duty had produced. Mr. W. next reverted to the bill before the House. One part of it (the duty on snuff) he could not agree to. The other part, refined sugars, would fall on those who could afford to pay it, and after all that had been said against this bill, he was firmly convinced, that, so far from injuring the manufacture, it would thrive the better for this tax. He, on this account, hoped that the bill would pass, in spite of his objection to some things that might, perhaps, be corrected. He then replied to the complaints of some gentlemen, who, as an excuse for repeating over and over again their former arguments and opinions, observed, that they had not received an answer. It was very likely that they might think so, and he, for his part, did not think that he had been answered. This kind of reasoning had no end. Perhaps it was impossible for him, or gentlemen of his sentiments, to answer the opposite side of the question. And, again, perhaps the gentlemen of the opposite opinion could not answer them. The matter must rest there, and the question come to a vote.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was convinced that there was a deficiency, and a great one. But he was not fully prepared to speak upon the subject; though he was sure of the fact. He did not wish to hurry the subject. The bill might be printed.

Mr. NICHOLAS was sorry to have learned that he had, on Saturday, made a general reflection on a profession of men. With some gentlemen, in the line referred to, he had as strict a friendship as with any persons on earth. He said, that ten lines of figures, which he had in his hand, would satisfy the House, that the taxes in the present bill are not wanted. He then began a detail of considerable length, to which Mr. FITZSIMONS replied.

Mr. TRACY.--One gentleman says that we have a surplus of three millions; another, that we have a surplus of one million. It is very strange for gentlemen to be coming forward in this stage of the debate, and to say that money is not wanted, after the want of money has been so frequently advanced, and admitted, in the House. It is unaccountable, that there should be a contradiction on a point of this nature. He next went into a long series of calculations.

He objected to the estimate of the impost of 1793, that was reckoned upon for the current expenses of 1794. A great part of this impost was still due, by bonds. The persons who had given these bonds were, many of them, broke by the British depredations in the West Indies; and, in fact, a large proportion of that impost never would be paid in to the collectors of the revenue.

He was displeased with the way in which some gentlemen had spoken of the national debt. He had no share, for his own part, as a creditor; but a part of his property must go to the discharge of it, and he should cheerfully pay it. He did not agree with those gentlemen who, in the event of a peace, would not wish to replenish the Treasury. It was curious, that the House had now been assembled for nearly six months; and that their chief object had been to discover ways and means for raising public money. A bill for that purpose had been brought in; and just when it was on the point of being passed, we make a sudden and wonderful discovery, that no money is wanted; but that we have an overplus of three millions of dollars. The thing cannot be. The calculations are not founded on truth. He did not believe that members understood the bill. He could demonstrate that there was occasion for a supply of money.

Mr. MADISON thought that the arguments on each side of this question might be reduced to a narrow compass. If peace continues, he supposed it likely that the revenue would not fall so far short, as the committee had apprehended. But if there was a war, the expense would much exceed any thing yet thought of. He was for laying aside the subject at present, and if a rupture with England should ensue, he would then recommend, at once, a direct tax, and that these excise acts should be entirely thrown aside. If there was no war, he believed that no new taxes were required; let the matter therefore die, as to the present. He disapproved the principle of the tax, and should, on that account, think himself justified in voting against it.

Mr. GILLON rose, and replied to several gentlemen, who were for the excise on tobacco, snuff, and loaf and lump sugar; and observed, that he had partly obtained his object, by drawing gentlemen forward, with the calculations which had been kept back. But as the gentlemen, after having, by their own account, been three months on this subject, avowed that his request of detailing those large sums came rather unexpected, and that they wished to have more time to make their calculations, he had not much objection to let this bill have a second reading; but he hoped they would be accurate, in proportion to the time taken to preface them. As to the idea of our general taxes not taking place until the first of next March, that had no weight with him; because he knew the Civil List for the year was not all then due, nor would all the sum for military and naval preparations be to be paid down, the day the ore was dug for the guns, nor on the day that the first tree was cut to begin the frigates.

He agreed that a deficiency might arise on the supplies now due, for the terms which the gentlemen had assigned by the plunder of our merchants' property. He was happy to find that gentlemen had not lost sight of the serious applications they had received from that respectable and utile body (the merchants) for redress; and he should take care to remind gentlemen of their own observations, when the requests of the merchants were brought forward, as he was clear something must be done, either by restitution on the debts to be sequestered, a loan for them under the guarantee of the Union, or by prolonging the time to a remote period, of paying the duties that they owed. He was accused of making wonderful discoveries, of making calculations not founded in truth. The latter he denied, for, if there is any untruth in them, it cannot be on his side, but must have arisen from the committee; therefore, to them be the untruth applicable, as he did not make use of a figure but what they placed in their report.

He still retained his opinion, that surplus revenue was dangerous in the hands of any Government. What did they want to do with it? He hoped nothing else but to buy up the national funded debt as cheap as they could, which act was pardonable, only by the intent, he presumed, they must feel of at last doing justice to our late armies. His meaning was, that the profits arising from this speculation should be kept as a sacred deposit out at interest, and that interest to be employed towards paying off the interest due on the principal losses which our brave officers and soldiers had met with, by being obliged to part with their shares of pay at a very inferior value. This you may better pay to patriotism and misfortune than pay to speculators.

Mr. TRACY.--If I have said what is alleged, the language is too indecorous to be used by me to any gentleman on this floor. If any thing of that kind has escaped from me, I am ready to ask the gentleman's pardon. I have the highest respect for his character.

And the question was then put, Shall this bill be rejected? It passed in the negative--yeas 31, nays 56, as follows:

YEAS.--Thomas Blount, Thomas P. Carnes, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Abraham Clark, Isaac Coles, William Findlay, William B. Giles, Alexander Gillon, Andrew Gregg, Daniel Heister, William Lyman, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Joseph McDowell, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Josiah Parker, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Thomas Scott, John Smilie, Thomas Tredwell, Abraham Venable, Francis Walker, Richard Winn, and Joseph Winston.

NAYS.--Fisher Ames, James Armstrong, Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, John Beatty, Elias Boudinot, Benjamin Bourne, Lambert Cadwalader, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Joshua Coit, William J. Dawson, Jonathan Dayton, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, Samuel Dexter, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, James Gillespie, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, Samuel Griffin, William Barry Grove, Thomas Hartley, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, John Hunter, Henry Latimer, Amasa Learned, Richard Bland Lee, Matthew Locke, Francis Malbone, Alexander Mebane, William Vans Murray, Alexander D. Orr, Andrew Pickens, Theodore Sedgwick, John S. Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, Silas Talbot, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E. Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Peleg Wadsworth, Jeremiah Wadsworth, Artemas Ward, John Watts, and Benjamin Williams.

The said bill was then read the second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House on Wednesday next.

Augmentation of the Army.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill to augment the military force of the United States; and after some time spent therein, the Chairman reported that the committee had had the said bill under consideration, and made amendment thereto; which was read, as follows:

Strike out the first section of the bill, in the words following, to wit:

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be raised, for the term of ---- years, or during a war which may break out between the United States and any European Power, an additional military force, consisting of twenty-five thousand non-commissioned officers, privates, and musicians, together with a proper proportion of commissioned officers of all grades, respectively, according to the present Military Establishment of the United States:"

And on the question that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in the said amendment, it was resolved in the affirmative.

A motion was then made and seconded to amend the said bill, by inserting, in lieu of the section stricken out, the following section, to wit:

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be raised, upon the terms and conditions hereafter mentioned, an additional provisional military force, to consist of ---- non-commissioned officers, privates, and musicians, together with a proper proportion of commissioned officers."

It passed in the negative--yeas 30, nays 50, as follows:

YEAS.--Fisher Ames, John Beatty, Benjamin Bourne, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Jonathan Dayton, George Dent, Samuel Dexter, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Amasa Learned, Richard Bland Lee, Francis Malbone, William Vans Murray, Theodore Sedgwick, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, Silas Talbot, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E. Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and John Watts.

NAYS.--James Armstrong, Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, Thomas Blount, Thomas P. Carnes, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Abraham Clark, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, William J. Dawson, Henry Dearborn, William Findlay, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Alexander Gillon, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, William Barry Grove, Daniel Heister, John Hunter, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Joseph McDowell, Alexander Mebane, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Thomas Scott, John S. Sherburne, John Smilie, Israel Smith, Thomas Tredwell, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Francis Walker, Richard Winn, Benjamin Williams, and Joseph Winston.