Part 216

Mr. GOODHUE moved that the resolution might be referred to a Committee of the whole House, which was seconded by Mr. DEXTER. It was then moved, by way of amendment to the motion, by Mr. DAYTON, to add these words, "to whom was referred the resolution, for the sequestration of British debts:" to which Mr. GOODHUE objected, because, he said, the subjects were distinct and separate in their nature and ought not to be combined. His resolution went only to establish the principle of indemnification, by guaranteeing it to the sufferers, leaving the fund from which it should be made (in case Great Britain should refuse to do us justice) to a future consideration. That whether British debts were sequestered or not, he said, the United States were bound to see that indemnity was made to the merchants whose property had been kidnapped in a secret, clandestine manner, while pursuing a lawful trade, under the authority of this Government and law of nations, or to give them an opportunity of indemnifying themselves by making reprisals. That it was well known there was great opposition to the sequestration of British debts, and it was very doubtful whether such a measure would ever be adopted; and if this resolution was to be referred to the same committee, and become connected with that, he should very much despair of ever getting any indemnification. That British debts were a very precarious and uncertain fund; and the idea of ever getting indemnification from that source, would operate as a delusion. That if sequestration, under any circumstances, could be proper, it was highly improper at this time, when an Envoy Extraordinary had just been despatched to Great Britain; and more so, as we had discontinued the Embargo, which would put all our remaining vessels in the power of that nation. He should, therefore, consider an agreement to the amendment as amounting to a determination not to consider the subject, at least for the present session.

In support of the amendment, it was argued, that the two subjects had an intimate connection with each other, and never ought to be separated; that British debts and British property were the natural and only funds for paying British depredations, and if indemnity was not given this way, it ought not to be given at all; that, as it was probable the resolution for sequestration would lie dormant for some time, it was best to refer this to the same committee, that they might sleep together. The amendment was supported by Messrs. LYMAN, NICHOLAS, SMILIE, DEARBORN, and MADISON.

Mr. DAYTON made a number of pointed remarks on what he considered as the total futility of such a resolution. He looked on it as nothing better than an awkward attempt to gain popularity. He complained bitterly of the injustice of bringing up this motion alone; because when he voted against it, it might be surmised that he was unfavorable to the redress of the injuries of a certain class of citizens. He was for redressing their wrongs, and he had marked out to the House the only effectual way in which these wrongs should ever be redressed, viz: the sequestration of British property. He adverted to an expression made use of, some days ago, by Mr. SEDGWICK, who had called this a mad project. Mr. D. was of opinion that the mad-cap might with propriety be transferred to a different situation, which he specified to the House. He said, that we were frequently told of the justice due to the British subjects. Be it so. But was there no justice also due to the people of the United States? And what justice could there be in attempting to make the American citizens pay for depredations committed by British privateers, when we had in our hands British property? Were we not bound to take as much care of our own interest, as of that of other people? It had been said, that as a negotiation was to commence under an Ambassador Extraordinary, that this measure would impede its success. He was, on the contrary, convinced that this was the only step that could be likely to insure the success of Mr. Jay's mission. It would teach Britain to give up her infamous conduct. It would convert, in the literal sense of the word, every English manufacturing house, that had debts due to it in this country, into an American negotiator; and they would, for their own sakes, compel their Government to do justice to the American merchants.

Mr. D. scouted the idea of taxing America, to pay for the depredations committed in the West Indies. Supposing, what every gentleman in the House knew to be impossible, that if Congress actually were to pass such an act, the people would not submit to pay their money for any such purpose.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, it certainly had not been his wish that the question should be brought forward at the present time. As it was, however, before the House, as he approved the motives of his colleague, who made the motion, and as he perfectly concurred with him in opinion on the subject, he would make a few concise observations. He believed, that in a Government such as that of this country it was the peculiar duty of those to whom the administration has been committed, to extend security and protection to all the interests, and redress for all the injuries of the citizens. That inexcusable and unexampled injuries had been perpetrated, and an immense value in property unjustly spoiled, and that the honor of our country had been insulted, without provocation, were facts admitted by all. Those whose property had been the sport of wanton violation, which, in many instances, had reduced the sufferers from ease and affluence to want and misery, came forward and demanded redress and indemnification. That they were entitled to such indemnification, from the nature of our social compact, he understood to be agreed by every gentleman.

Mr. S. said he was obliged to the gentlemen for setting him right; till now he had believed that the right of the sufferers to indemnification was denied by none. If this, however, was really a question yet to be decided, it was due to the sufferers, it was due to our own honor, to decide it without delay. It was asked, by what means is the Government to administer redress? They were first to apply to the Governments which had inflicted the injuries, to state their nature and extent, and to demand, in unequivocal terms, redress. This business, notwithstanding all the opposition which had been made, was happily in a proper train. He hoped and believed that the application would be effectual. It might, however, fail; and in that case, he was free to declare that we owed it to our honor and to our injured citizens, to attempt redress by means of the last resort. In that unhappy event, the interests of the sufferers must be involved with the general interests of the nation, and must abide the ultimate result of war. But if satisfaction should not be obtained by negotiation, and should the Government, from any political considerations, not seek redress by force, in such events the sufferers would have a just claim on their country for indemnification. The question now immediately before the House was, to refer the motion for indemnification to the Committee of the Whole on the subject of sequestration. This was not fair, as it respected that part of the House who approved an engagement to indemnify, and who would never consent to sequestration. It was not fair as respected the sufferers, because he believed there was not a gentleman in the House who supposed that the measure of sequestration would prevail. He was astonished that any should believe that it ought to be adopted. He, himself, without hesitation, approved of engaging to indemnify the sufferers; but at the same time, with all his heart, he abhorred sequestration and confiscation of debts, as the measures which all civilized nations had for more than a century abandoned as immoral and unjust. He would not now enter into a discussion of the question of sequestration. Whenever it came directly under consideration, he pledged himself to undertake to prove that it was against the law of nations, that it was immoral, unjust, and impolitic. He had been sorry to perceive that the feelings of the mover of that proposition (Mr. DAYTON) were wounded, by the terms in which gentlemen had spoken of his motion. He himself, in his conscience, believed it to be immoral and unjust; and, as such, he felt himself bound as a man of honor to give it his strenuous opposition. The gentleman surely could not reasonably expect that independent men would sacrifice opinion to politeness or to friendship. All he could do, and that he did with pleasure, was to declare that he believed the gentleman's motives were pure and upright, and that he had a perfect confidence in the correctness of his moral sentiments. Viewing the subject in the light he had expressed, he appealed to the candor and fairness of gentlemen, to what tended the combining of those irritative questions of indemnification and sequestration, but to wound the feelings and evade the just application of the sufferers? Gentlemen had charged his colleague, and those who had supported his motion, with attempting, by these means, meanly to court popularity. To refute this charge would, in his opinion, be unnecessary, because no well-informed man in America could believe it. He did not know that the opinions which were held by his friends and himself on this subject, were popular; it was sufficient that they were believed to be just. Was he, however, disposed to recriminate, by disclosing motives which were not avowed, but concealed, he could tell a tale, which, he believed, could be heard with effect.

Mr. GOODHUE spoke a few words, in direct opposition to what had been advanced by Mr. DAYTON. The two propositions ought to be discussed separately. We had sent a negotiator to Britain, and a sequestration would put an end to his business. The citizens of the United States ought to be taxed, in the mean time, to pay these losses; and it was possible that a sequestration might, hereafter, be thought advisable. He very strongly pressed the idea of a tax to this end. It would be a proceeding of the most superlative impropriety, to lay on such a sequestration at this particular juncture, when we had just agreed to take off the Embargo, because our ships would go to England, and be all seized, by way of reprisal.

Mr. CLARK recommended that both propositions should be laid aside for the present, and be suffered to take a sweet nap together, till a more convenient time. He spoke with much contempt of the notion of taxing the people of this country to pay for the ravages of Britain. The Court of London would say to the world: "You see that we acted right: you see the United States think so likewise; for they themselves pay their merchants."

Mr. GILES agreed with Mr. CLARK: but as there is a necessary sameness in the arguments on this question, and as they have already been detailed in so many different forms, it seems needless to repeat them over again so frequently. He said that when this tax came to be levied, every farmer would say, every man in America would say, "We shall have nothing to do with this business. Why don't you indemnify British depredations out of the British property that is within your grasp?" He had heard that Congress ought to decide an abstract proposition, viz: that this Government was, in any event, bound to pay the recent losses of its merchants by sea; and then proceed to assign funds for the payment. He thought that before Congress undertook any such engagement, they ought at least to be possessed of the money requisite to discharge it. He hoped that the House would never proceed to a vote in support of any abstract axiom, especially where taxes and public money were concerned, till they had carefully digested the collateral circumstances.

Mr. DEXTER spoke against the amendment. He said, that very strong reasons existed both for taking into consideration a proposition for indemnity to the sufferers, and also against connecting it with sequestration or any other subject. Each ought to stand or fall on its own merits. The sufferers were numerous, and deserving citizens; they had waited a long time, and had a right to know, before the close of the session, what protection they were to expect from the Government of their own country. Sequestration, without a change of political circumstances, would never pass both Houses of the Legislature; to connect them, then, would be to deny relief, without even examining the principles on which they claim it. He said, British debts had been called the only proper and natural funds: in his opinion, they would be no fund at all, even if sequestration could be adopted. The debts would never be collected; and not only so, but sequestration would be the beginning of hostilities, and war must ensue; this, at the same moment, would prevent all hope of obtaining justice from Britain, and also discharge our own Government from every obligation to indemnify. Mr. D. said he would state what, in his opinion, was the proper and natural fund--the money to be demanded of Britain by our Envoy Extraordinary. Should this fail, the Government of America would either pay the sufferers, or grant them letters of marque and reprisal. This, he said, is the constant course of nations, and this the sufferers have a right to demand, as a counterpart of their allegiance. Mr. D. said, it had been objected that the British Government would be encouraged by it to refuse a recompense. This, if true, would be a serious objection, for he had always viewed negotiation as affording the only probable chance for indemnity to the sufferers. If a recompense be refused by Britain, war will be the consequence. The objection, however, he thought, would be entirely removed, by attending to the resolution itself. It is not, he said, a provision for taking the debt on ourselves, but merely to guarantee a recompense to the sufferers. The very word itself implies that the Government of America is not the principal debtor, but is to compel another to make indemnity, or become the debtor. Mr. D. closed with saying that he had attended only to the reasoning of the gentlemen, and not to their personalities. It was not his practice to leave the question, to impute to others motives either corrupt or paltry: if they chose to glean imaginary laurels on this ground, he was not anxious to share them; they could best judge whether, in this way, they were likely to increase their reputation or benefit the public.

Messrs. AMES, MURRAY, SMITH, (of South Carolina,) and HILLHOUSE, also spoke against the amendment, and said the merits of neither proposition were now before the House, but only the mode in which the subject should be considered; that they were in themselves separate and independent, and ought to have a separate and independent consideration; they were questions of very great national concern, and that blending them together would give an undue bias, and neither would be fairly and impartially decided. It was doubtful whether the resolution for sequestration ever ought to be adopted, and that to connect the two subjects, would be to hang a millstone about the necks of the sufferers; that, as they were a numerous and very meritorious class of citizens, their claim merited a candid and full examination, unembarrassed with any other matter.

A warm dispute arose about the form in which the question on this resolution should be taken. The point actually contested seemed to be, whether the resolution was to be referred to the committee on Mr. DAYTON'S motion for the sequestration of British property, or to a separate committee, which was insisted on by the mover, Mr. GOODHUE.

A division took place upon the question of agreeing to Mr. DAYTON's amendment, to add, after the words "be referred to a Committee of the Whole," the following words, viz: "to whom were referred the resolutions for sequestering the British debts;" and the yeas and nays being called for, were taken--yeas 57, nays 31, as follows:

YEAS.--Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, John Beatty, Thomas Blount, Elias Boudinot, Thomas P. Carnes, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Abraham Clark, Isaac Coles, William J. Dawson, Jonathan Dayton, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, William Findlay, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Alexander Gillon, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Samuel Griffin, William B. Grove, George Hancock, John Heath, Daniel Heister, William Hindman, John Hunter, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Joseph McDowell, Alexander Mebane, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Nathaniel Niles, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Josiah Parker, Andrew Pickens, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Thomas Scott, John S. Sherburne, John Smilie, Israel Smith, Silas Talbot, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Francis Walker, Benjamin Williams, Richard Winn, and Joseph Winston.

NAYS.--Fisher Ames, James Armstrong, Benjamin Bourne, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Joshua Coit, Samuel Dexter, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, James Hillhouse, Henry Latimer, Amasa Learned, Richard Bland Lee, Francis Malbone, William Vans Murray, Theodore Sedgwick, Jeremiah Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E. Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Watts.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the said motion for commitment, as amended, it was resolved in the affirmative.

FRIDAY, May 16.

Revenue Bill: Salt and Coal Tax.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill laying additional duties on goods, wares, and merchandise imported into the United States, and on the tonnage of ships or vessels.

The three cents per bushel of additional duty on salt was objected to by Mr. FINDLAY, as oppressive to his constituents.

Mr. AMES was convinced, that this was much better than a land-tax. It was beyond all comparison, more cheap, more certain, and more equal in the collection than a land-tax. He would rather tax salt, at even half a dollar per bushel, than agree to a land-tax.

Mr. CLARK would be very glad to hear the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FINDLAY) specify, upon what subject he was willing to pay a tax? It was beyond the comprehension of Mr. C., for what sort of a tax the gentleman was prepared to vote, or, indeed, what sort of taxes the Western settlers of Pennsylvania pay. We lay a duty on sugar. They make sugar for themselves. We lay a tax on tobacco. They are to manufacture for themselves. We lay an excise on distilleries. They refuse to pay this tax, and, in fact, they do not pay it. We tax wines; but we are told that these people are poor. They cannot, therefore, afford to drink wine, on which the duty is very heavy, for that duty is paid only by the rich. We tax the importation of foreign fineries, such as silk, but silk also is not the dress of poor people, so that here again the constituents of the gentleman get off. We are going to tax the importation of foreign coals, but they have plenty of their own, and so far from paying a tax on them, are cutting a canal to bring them down to Philadelphia; which will drive out the importation of foreign coals, and so destroy the tax altogether. Under these circumstances, Mr. C. was solicitous to learn what taxes the back settlers paid, for, as far as he could understand, they paid none; and their Representative would do well to inform the House on what they were willing to pay a tax. Was Government to be burdened with them, and derive no compensation? Was it a sufficient reason for exempting a district from public burdens to say that the people are poor? Are taxes to be paid exclusively by the rich?

Mr. RUTHERFORD objected to this duty on salt. It was often to be carried from one to three hundred and fifty miles inland, and in fact, it frequently costs twenty shillings per bushel. No tax could be so universally unpopular as this would be.

Mr. FINDLAY replied to Mr. CLARK. As to sugar, though some of his neighbors made theirs, Mr. F. bought his own in Philadelphia. As to silks and other female fineries, his constituents did just like other people. They spent, in that way, as much as they could possibly afford, and had among them ladies very well dressed. As to other matters, his constituents purchased their manufactures in Philadelphia, and paid for them as other people did. Salt, he said, was known to be necessary for cattle in the back country. He was strongly against the tax.

Mr. GILLON likewise opposed the tax on salt. It had been proposed, in the State which he represented, but never could be carried through.

On a division, it was rejected--ayes 32, noes 47.

A motion was made for striking out twenty-five cents per ton of additional tonnage, on foreign vessels, in order to insert fifty.

It was passed in the negative--ayes 39, noes 41.